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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Important debate in Westminster this afternoon about sexual exploitation and prostitution websites and

61 replies

R0wantrees · 04/07/2018 14:11

THis was discussed on Woman's Hour this morning in an interview with Sarah Champion:
'As sex work moves online, are prostitution websites enabling a growth in exploitation and trafficking? Sarah Champion MP tells us why she believes UK legislation needs to be radically overhauled to keep pace with the changing face of prostitution'

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b85m8r

"Let’s criminalise the men buying sex, and spare the women they exploit
Sophie Walker (WEP)
A new report lays bare the brutal realities of life for sex workers in Britain. The law must now change to protect them"

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/21/british-sex-trade-women

Important debate in Westminster this afternoon about sexual exploitation and prostitution websites and
OP posts:
LassWiADelicateAir · 06/07/2018 18:01

But I don't want society to view sex workers as scum because some of them are my friends

I am assuming your "sex worker" friends aren't pimps or madams?

LassWiADelicateAir · 06/07/2018 17:57

That seems particularly venomous, Lass. I call myself a sex worker because the word 'prostitute' has a lot of societal baggage attached to it and is generally used by people who want to dehumanise us

The societal baggage is there because what you and your punters do is damaging to society as a whole and women in particular. I don't accept the prettifying up by weaselly terms such as "sex worker"- which includes pimps and brothel keepers.

And before you start- this has nothing to do with sex. I don't care less what consenting adults do for genuinely fun sex.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/07/2018 17:49

How do you feel about the safety of sex workers and online advertising?

I don't feel that 'sex work' is safe. I don't feel that we should allow online advertising of 'services' that break every H&S regulation in place to protect both workers and 'customers' I think that that applies to cleaners, dentists, doctors, chefs, masseurs and nail technicians, and if prostitution is to be a legitimate profession, it has to apply to prostitutes too.

And if you can't do the job whilst complying, then no, I don't think it's a safe job, and we should do what we can to block advertising.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/07/2018 17:44

Tell you what, if you can find me another job where I can earn £1,000+ a week working 3.5 days per week with no qualifications then I’ll hang up my stockings today.

Again, do you follow the H&S guidelines on contact with body fluids, and the disposal of equipment contaminated by them?

Do you have public liability insurance? Have you performed risk assessments as required?

No? Then that's the reason you're earning that amount money, because you're not treating it like an actual job, you're not following the law. If any other self-employed person said - it's fine, I'll do your dental work for you for half the price, because I don't pay for insurance or use any safety equipment, which gives me lower overheads, then would you think that was OK? Would you think that dentist is acceptable?

Brazenhussy0 · 06/07/2018 14:38

if they're such good guys, you could just have sex with them, and switch to a normal job that doesn't endanger your life and continue to support the commodification of women's bodies to earn money?

This is a slightly insulting question. My clients are clients, not people I would be intimate with for free. This is my job and entirely different from my own personal sex life. I appreciate that can be difficult to understand from the outside.

Tell you what, if you can find me another job where I can earn £1,000+ a week working 3.5 days per week with no qualifications then I’ll hang up my stockings today.
I enjoy the flexibility of being self-employed, the income, meeting new people, the minimal hours, the physical activity, the feeling of sexual liberation.
Every sex worker has her own reasons for choosing sex work. It’s not as simple as ‘why don’t you just find another job?’

I don’t see what I do as commodification of my body. To me, I’m selling a service. My body is still mine and I choose what I do with it and when.

But this is entirely off topic from the discussion at hand… How do you feel about the safety of sex workers and online advertising?

CardsforKittens · 06/07/2018 14:26

See when you read things back and realise that wasn't what you meant to convey?

When I said 'But I don't want society to view sex workers as scum because some of them are my friends' I should have indicated that having friends who are sex workers is by no means the only reason I don't want society to see them as scum. Sorry that wasn't clear.

CardsforKittens · 06/07/2018 14:21

LassWiADelicateAir
I want society to view punters as the scum they truly are.
I have similar desires, which arose in response to violence experienced by those of my friends who have been sex workers. But I don't want society to view sex workers as scum because some of them are my friends.

Brazenhussy0 Thank you so much for the links - I will read them this afternoon. I find it all really complex and I struggle to articulate a coherent position beyond 'sex work, as it currently manifests, is a reflection of patriarchal abuse of power in which many women are harmed'. But how to reduce harm is unclear, and plenty of people would disagree with me about the nature of sex work. So I'll keep reading!

Brazenhussy0 · 06/07/2018 14:04

You are fooling yourself if you think calling yourself a "sex worker" rather than a prostitute gives you some sort of status

That seems particularly venomous, Lass. I call myself a sex worker because the word 'prostitute' has a lot of societal baggage attached to it and is generally used by people who want to dehumanise us.

Brazenhussy0 · 06/07/2018 13:59

the men who pay to masturbate in you.

What heros. Paying women to endanger themselves so they can masterbate into them.

Confused That 'othering' and stigma I was talking about in my rather lengthy post? This is a good example of it.
I'm having consensual sex in exchange for payment. A lot of my clients enjoy seeing me experience pleasure, but I realise that is likely to fall on deaf ears.

Regardless, whether you find sex work morally repugnant is up to you. I don't, and have no moral issue with what I do. My primary concern is my (and other sex worker's) safety.

Melanippe · 06/07/2018 13:58

Personal and public liability insurance, correct disposal of articles contaminated with body fluids, and relevant H&S safety regulations followed around contact with them. Then it's just a job.

This as a basic.

These are the HSE guidelines for dealing with bodily fluids, admittedly for offshore use, but the ones where I work are pretty much the same and these form the basis for protocols all over. Especially when dealing with high risk bodily fluids like blood, semen etc.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/07/2018 13:47

and the few good clients who are still brave enough to visit them.

What heros. Paying women to endanger themselves so they can masterbate into them. Perhaps we could get them some kind of certificate in appreciation, or, and I'm just thinking here, if they're such good guys, you could just have sex with them, and switch to a normal job that doesn't endanger your life and continue to support the commodification of women's bodies to earn money?

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/07/2018 13:43

Therefore sex workers should receive the same rights and employment

Absolutely.

Personal and public liability insurance, correct disposal of articles contaminated with body fluids, and relevant H&S safety regulations followed around contact with them. Then it's just a job.

Until you have these things, you're fooling yourself if you think it's work like any other. No other job demands that you put yourself at risk of life altering illness and pregnancy multiple times a day.

LassWiADelicateAir · 06/07/2018 13:32

The reason for this is thought to be because the Nordic model works to increase stigma towards sex workers. With more stigma we become ‘othered’, seen as lower beings who are disposable, and who do not have the agency or rights of other women. This narrative creates a situation where we’re viewed as fair game for robberies, assault, rape, etc

You are fooling yourself if you think calling yourself a "sex worker" rather than a prostitute gives you some sort of status; particularly amongst the men who pay to masturbate in you.

I want society to view punters as the scum they truly are.

Brazenhussy0 · 06/07/2018 13:15

@CardsforKittens
Thank you for taking the time to engage and (if you have time) read the report upthread. Really, all sex workers want is to be heard and to have a say in our own safety and livelihoods, so it’s appreciated when some people do take the time to do the reading and keep an open mind.

As for murder rates, it’s a difficult issue. There haven’t been any in depth studies done on the effects of the Nordic model on sex worker murder rates so there’s been a bit of statistical cherry picking on both sides of the debate.
Looking at murder rates is complex and problematic, the reasons for that being outlined in this review by Professor Sanders et.al. at the University of Leicester:
www2.le.ac.uk/departments/criminology/people/teela-sanders/BriefingPaperTheUseofSexWorkerHomicideStatsinCampaigning.pdf

In general, statistics around sex work are problematic and notoriously difficult to pin down because of the covert nature of the work we do. Most often, statistics only relate to street workers (who are a tiny minority of sex workers) and ignore the very large majority of indoor workers.
This is especially difficult when it comes to Swedish statistics. The Swedish have a desire to ensure the Nordic model appears a success on the global stage so their statistics are often insufficient at best or intentionally misleading at worst (and making sense of them tends to require an ability to understand Swedish!)
Here’s an example of that happening with trafficking statistics:
feministire.com/2011/10/04/swedish-police-stats-show-more-not-less-prostitution-and-trafficking/amp/

The Home Affairs Committee acknowledged the difficulties with statistics in their 2017 report. The conclusion was basically that there is not enough reliable information to base changing our laws on and we should wait to see how things pan out in Ireland with the Nordic Model.
(If you’re going to pick just one of my links to read, this should be the one.):
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/26/26.pdf

It's 2018 now, and things are not looking very good for Irish sex workers. Violence towards sex workers has increased by anywhere from 40-60% (depending on which set of statistics you look at.):
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/03/does-nordic-model-work-what-happened-when-ireland-criminalised-buying-sex?amp

The reason for this is thought to be because the Nordic model works to increase stigma towards sex workers. With more stigma we become ‘othered’, seen as lower beings who are disposable, and who do not have the agency or rights of other women. This narrative creates a situation where we’re viewed as fair game for robberies, assault, rape, etc.

This is a fantastic article by Dr. Kate Lister (March 2018), where she discusses this in some depth:
inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/women/as-a-sex-historian-this-is-what-i-want-you-to-know-about-the-buying-and-selling-of-sex/

I’ll include an extract, for those who are unwilling to read my many, many links! I do thank you, if you’ve taken the time to read this whole post.

-----------------------

Walker celebrates the first anniversary of Ireland’s Sex Buyer’s Laws, the act that criminalises the purchase of sexual services, but not the selling. But when you actually ask sex workers and sex worker rights groups how they feel about the Nordic model, it’s hard to understand what Walker thinks is worth celebrating. In the year since Ireland brought in the Nordic model there has been a 54% increase in crime against sex workers reported to National Ugly Mugs Ireland, and violent crime is up by 77%. The Sex Workers Alliance Ireland (SWAI) strongly opposed the introduction of this law and rightly warned that it would lead to increased violence against sex workers. Walker claims she finds it ‘extraordinary that the purchase of a woman’s body for sex is legal in the UK’. I find it extraordinary that anyone would think a system resulting in a 77% increase in violent crime against the very people it claims to protect, is worthy of celebration.

The Nordic model does not work because by criminalising the client, you in turn criminalise the sex worker. How would you fair if the source of your income was suddenly criminalised? Research from the countries that have adopted the Nordic model shows again and again that ‘end demand’ legislation only place sex workers at significantly greater risk of harm. Criminalising clients may reduce demand from those not wishing to commit a crime, but it does not deter those who wish to hurt sex workers. Once demand has been reduced, competition for less desirable clients increases among sex workers, leading to an increase in risky, dangerous behaviour, such as unprotected sex, working in isolation or in deserted areas. As clients become less willing to directly approach sex workers, Sweden and Norway saw the use of third party negotiators (pimps and madams) increase dramatically.

As Walker’s article makes abundantly clear, the Nordic Model is simply a staging post on the road to abolition. It is part of a wider narrative that refuses to see the sex worker as anything other than a victim to be rescued. Despite excellent work done by sex worker rights groups this ‘sex-work saviour complex’ continues to dominate and shape modern narratives surrounding sex workers. By constructing the sex worker as a victim, she is subtly disempowered, stripped of her own agency, and tacitly presented as inferior. Whilst allowing the saviour space to validate their own moral agenda, it reinforces social hierarchy, and stigmatises the ‘rescued’.

Stigma kills

One of the mantras of the sex worker rights movement is ‘Stigma Kills, and the Nordic model directly re-stigmatises sex workers by moralising that selling and buying sexual services is wrong. In Sweden, this stigma is actually viewed as a welcome effect of the Nordic model as it may help put off potential clients, despite the fact that stigma places sex workers at significantly greater risks of violence (as seen in Ireland over the last year). In 2000, John Lowman identified a ‘discourse of disposability’ in media reports on sex workers, by analysing media descriptions of efforts to abolish sex work by politicians, police and local residents. Lowman linked this with a sharp increase in the murders of street sex workers in British Columbia after 1980. He argues that, ‘It appears that the discourse on prostitution of the early 1980s was dominated by demands to get rid of prostitutes from the streets, creating a social milieu in which violence against prostitutes could flourish. This is how stigma works. Once the sex worker is stigmatised as disposable, a message formed, shaped and deployed in debates around abolition, this discourse then influences how sex workers are treated. And they are not treated well under the Nordic model.

Why aren’t we listening to sex workers?

Why aren’t we listening to the sex workers themselves? Every sex worker rights organisation fights the Nordic model and seeks full discrimination, because it keeps people safe. In a survey of over 200 sex workers, researchers from the University of Northumbria found that 96.2% of respondents did not think people should be criminalised for purchasing sex.

The Nordic model and its supporters tacitly presents sex workers as degenerate, disposable victims in need of rescue. The evidence proves that criminalising clients causes significant harm to those in the sex industry. A central tenet of feminism is bodily autonomy, sexual agency, the right to say yes and the right to say no, and to have that respected. How can you seriously call yourself a feminist if you insist on denying those same rights to your sister sex workers?

zurichgnome · 06/07/2018 13:11

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sillage · 05/07/2018 22:56

"What the Nordic Model does do, is push the industry underground where traffickers, pimps and violence can no longer be tracked or reported."

If they were being "tracked and reported" now they would be arrested for pimping and trafficking, but that's not what's happening.

I'm all right with the only men who can find prostitutes to pay for sex being men with connections to the criminal underground, that alone should cut down punter clientele by at least 80-90%.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/07/2018 22:36

There should of course be support to ensure that women have a way to leave the sex industry, if they want to

I can't think of a single legitimate industry which necessitates a support network for those wanting to leave it.

Prostitution is not a job like any other job and never will be no matter how much you try to prettify it by calling it the "sex industry"

CardsforKittens · 05/07/2018 22:14

Brazen I promise I will read the 84 page report - possibly at the weekend when I have some time. I just have a quick question if that's ok... I've read that there are far fewer murders of sex workers in the Nordic model. I'm a bit sceptical. Is it because sex workers aren't recognised as sex workers because they're 'underground'?

Brazenhussy0 · 05/07/2018 19:11

But Brazen the reports from the super brothels... - Are entirely irrelevant to this discussion. As I already said, they came about as a result of legalisation not decriminalisation. Legalisation is not something anyone wants in the UK.

the reports from countrys where decriminalisation has been adopted are horrifying.

  • I'm sorry, but I actually laughed when I read that. You didn't even read a few pages of that report I posted upthread did you Grin You're beginning to seem a bit willfully ignorant here.

If an 84 page report is a bit too long for you, here's a decent wee opinion article from someone who actually works very closely with sex workers - metro.co.uk/2018/07/05/criminalising-online-platforms-puts-sex-workers-in-danger-mps-must-listen-to-the-people-they-are-putting-at-risk-7684816/

Where the Nordic model is adopted violence goes down and trafficking decreases, pimps make less money, women are treated more respectfully.

  • Erm, no, not quite Confused In fact, that's the exact opposite of what's been going on in the aftermath of the 'Nordic model' being implemented. What the Nordic Model does do, is push the industry underground where traffickers, pimps and violence can no longer be tracked or reported. Sex workers are too frightened to report incidents to the police for fear of losing their already unstable income and the few good clients who are still brave enough to visit them.
LumpySpacedPrincess · 05/07/2018 06:36

But Brazen the reports from the super brothels from the women in them are horrifying, the reports from countrys where decriminalisation has been adopted are horrifying. Women are treated appallingly, trafficking increases, women still die and experience violence and have no way out.

Where the Nordic model is adopted violence goes down and trafficking decreases, pimps make less money, women are treated more respectfully.

I think there are a lot of people who want to keep women and girls in the pipeline.

CardsforKittens · 05/07/2018 00:33

For me, this is one of the trickiest problems. I want to live in a world where all men treat all women with respect at all times. To my mind, this means men shouldn't expect to be able to buy sex from vulnerable women.

But we don't live in an ideal world. So what's the priority: keeping sex workers as safe as possible in a patriarchal society? Legislating in the hope that society will become less patriarchal as a result?

I'm almost completely unconvinced that any policy will make things significantly better for sex workers in the short term - because they're not causing the situation we've identified as a problem.

But I also don't want to believe that it doesn't matter what policy we adopt. I have friends who were sex workers. I wish I had more answers than questions.

BettyDuMonde · 04/07/2018 21:05

Nope, I didn’t imply anything, I said what I meant to say.

The fact that prostitutes are in danger of being murdered while earning a living is a pretty good argument against describing prostitutes as ‘sex workers’ mind you!

BettyDuMonde · 04/07/2018 20:57

True, but in the same manner, you don’t represent everyone selling sex, you are from a specific subset.

Brazenhussy0 · 04/07/2018 20:57

The problem with decriminalisation is it does nothing to protect the unseen victims of the sex buying trade - the oblivious wives and girlfriends of Johns.

Wait... did you seriously just imply that it is more important to protect wives from their cheating husbands than it is to protect sex workers from being murdered?

Fuck me. Beating my head against a brick wall here eh?

Brazenhussy0 · 04/07/2018 20:55

The reviews on punternet are terrifying:

Yes, they are (though punternet is actually long dead now, it has been replaced by others.)
These are the men I, personally, avoid seeing. If it wasn't for access to internet advertising and sex work forums, I would not know to avoid these men and may potentially end up stuck in a room with one of them for an hour.

The men who post on those forums do not represent all punters. They are a very specific subset.

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