Important debate in Westminster this afternoon about sexual exploitation and prostitution websites and

BrazenHussey doesn't sound boastful to me at all.

I support a family of five and I want my children to have nice things, like a comfortable home in a safe area and modest but nice holidays. The only way I can do that with my qualifications is prostitution.

I try to work one week and take one week off. Make £2,000-£4000 a week, before expenses and taxes. I'm proud of being able to provide for my family, but I'm not boasting about the money.

I only know other escorts like myself: independent and indoors. That doesn't mean that I think everyone is like me. But I think there's always going to be a sample bias. Someone working in law enforcement will see a very different sample.

Thanks for that, @R0wantrees
This is disappointing but not surprising.

Lass
no idea what point you are trying to make comparing the salaries of women in actual professions with those of a , I assume "high class" prostitute.

Really? Then you should probably do a bit more research into the material realities of sex work before you accuse sex workers of colluding with oppression.

It is certainly important to you that you can carry on being a prostitute and peddling the idea that it is an easy, convenient and flexible way to earn lots of money.

It is perfectly clear you have a vested interests in maintaining a despicable "trade" regardless of human cost.

I won't be coming back to this thread so don't waste your time writing any more pro-punter propaganda.

Cards - no idea what point you are trying to make comparing the salaries of women in actual professions with those of a , I assume "high class" prostitute.

You have been painting yourself as a wannabe Belle du Jour- you are still doing it- still boasting about what easy money.

If you perceive it as boasting, then there's not much I can do about that.

You seem a bit confused though- a page back you were wittering on about your punters wanting a girlfriend experience- how it was all lovely coffee and chats- but apparently you aren't happy?

Where did I say I'm not happy? I've been sitting here explaining to you what aspects of my job suit me and why I am happy doing the work I do. There is no confusion on my part, but do feel free to quote any contradictions I've made on this thread.

All you are doing is posting propaganda to sanitise and normalise the most exploitative human transaction which exists. You are part of the problem. I didn't say "those women " are colluding- I said you are

Ah, I get it now. You don't like that I'm speaking out and because I'm not sitting silently letting people who don't work in the sex industry put my safety and livelihood at risk then I'm 'colluding in oppression'.
My experiences and knowledge of the sex industry are not 'propaganda'.
I've been discussing what the likely impacts of banning sex work advertising websites would be and the impacts of the Nordic Model, making frequent references to rape, abuse, robbery and assault. If you think that constitutes as some kind of positive propaganda then you need to give your head a wobble.

Lass, genuine question, do you care at all about the safety of sex workers? Or is it more important to you that sex work ends regardless of the human cost?

Lass Your remarks about average salaries don't address my point, which is that many professional women are paid much more than the average salary. I'm not saying you'd have to take a pay cut if you were signed for Hibs, but successful solicitors tend to attract salaries much higher than median male earnings. Here's a Telegraph article that suggests, among other things, that a law degree from Edinburgh can get you an average salary of £93,000.
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/11554820/How-much-are-lawyers-really-paid.html

I mean, I'm a bit sceptical that all female law graduates with Edinburgh degrees are earning that much, but it does imply well over £1000 a week. This figure is high, but not incomparable with the earnings of many women in professional careers. However, access to law or medicine or other well-paid (traditionally male) careers almost always involves opportunities and privileges.

Still, as long as we have high levels of sex inequality it will be possible for some women to earn more than me (and possibly you) by engaging in sex work. This fact doesn't 'prettify' the sex industry; it exposes it as a symptom of a profoundly unequal society. Nothing pretty about a world where I could earn much more by performing sexual and emotional labour than by nursing or teaching or installing boilers. The people responsible for this situation are not sex workers.

A lot of the women I know in the industry

That says a lot about you- that you can describe it as an industry.

You have been painting yourself as a wannabe Belle du Jour- you are still doing it- still boasting about what easy money.

You seem a bit confused though- a page back you were wittering on about your punters wanting a girlfriend experience- how it was all lovely coffee and chats- but apparently you aren't happy?

All you are doing is posting propaganda to sanitise and normalise the most exploitative human transcaction which exists. You are part of the problem. I didn't say "those women " are colluding- I said you are

Crikey. That’s a lot of extrapolation from one very vague figure!

Lass, I don’t earn anywhere near £52,000 a year. I said I can earn £1,000+ a week, not that I earn that every week of the bloody year! (And I only work a total of about 7-8 months of the year..)
The point I was making was that I can earn a decent living without having to put in a huge amount of hours or have any qualifications. It wasn’t a boast at all.

A lot of the women I know in the industry are single parents, or carers, or have health problems themselves or are students. Being able to earn a good income and have flexibility and control over your work hours is a massive benefit in all these situations and there just isn’t an equal alternative for us. If there was, perhaps many of these women wouldn’t be in the sex industry.
These women aren't 'colluding in oppression', we're just trying to get by the best way we can.

For me, I’m a student (science) and being able to earn well while I study and fit my work in around my uni schedule suits me.
You appear to be painting me as some wannabe Belle de Jour so that you can disregard what I’m saying as being a ‘minority happy hooker’ account. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Street workers and trafficked women (i.e. the women who really need help and support) are actually the minority. Indoor workers like me make up the majority of current sex workers, and if you'd read any of the links I posted you would know that...

Plenty of professional women earn more than £1000 per week

Actually very few people of either sex earn more than £52,000 pa. That is well beyond most people's earnings in the UK. And she was at pains to point out that that is for 3 and a half days so grossing that up to 5 days is over £74,000.

The average UK salary is £27,271. Even part time income puts her well into the higher tax rate bracket- in Scotland 14% of tax payers pay tax at that rate.

She has been white-washing and prettifying what she does and what her punters do- as far as I'm concerned she is colluding in oppression.

Lass I agree that normalisation of inequality is a problem, and actually I find the sexualisation (or eroticisation if that's a word) of inequality an even bigger problem.

However, I read Brazen's account differently from your interpretation of someone boasting of immense wealth. Plenty of professional women earn more than £1000 per week. Did I remember correctly that you're a solicitor? I'm pretty sure average solicitor salaries are higher than that. So actually it's not an obscene quantity of money, especially after tax. It's more than I earn, but my work is much less intense. But more importantly, I had opportunities and privilege that a lot of women just don't have.

If prostitution or other forms of sex work are a social problem, then it's not the women doing the work that caused the problem. It doesn't make sense to me to implicate sex workers in the persistence of sexism. I can see the argument for implicating their clients. But it's not as simple and straightforward as you seem to be suggesting.

Many posters on this part of the forum are upset about self ID , promotion of trans rights. I'm not particularly.

I think the normalisation of pornography and prostitution is far more damaging to women and society.

I also think happy hookers like you boasting about the £1000s you make every week are a part of the problem. Maybe not quite as bad as pimps , but still part of the problem.

I am not particularly interested in your hurt feelings. You are colluding in oppression and even painting it as desirable and worthwhile.

you contribute to making the idea that it is acceptable to buy another person as a masturbatory aid.

Lass - I'm not sure why your attitude towards me is so hostile? I've already explained that my bookings with clients are about more than the client having an orgasm, and referring to sex workers as 'masturbatory aids' is deeply insulting.

You do not work in the sex industry, you have no experience of selling sex, or dealing with punters and you are (yet again) not listening to what an active sex worker with ~10 years of working in the industry is telling you.

Please at least make an attempt at informing yourself. I've provided a huge amount of information and links to some very thoughtful articles yet you appear completely unwilling to give any of it even the smallest glance. Why?

I do. HMRC appear to view sex work as a legitimate job, even if some MN users don't

HMRC will take tax off income which is declared. It is not illegal to be a prostitute in the UK. It is illegal to solicit, pimp or keep a brothel.

I hope you are not running your "business" out of a property which is let to you as you make the landlord run the risk of committing an offence by accepting rent from you.

As for societal damage- yes you contribute to making the idea that it is acceptable to buy another person as a masturbatory aid. Your "happy hooker" tales are dangerous to anyone naive enough to be taken in by them.

I think that’s the exact point Orange is making though? That advertising a non-regulated industry (whatever that industry does) shouldn’t be legal.

Sole traders/freelancers don’t have to specify how each payment was earned, so that part is irrelevant to the DWP.
Maybe it shouldn’t be?
Although it would be pretty boring to check the paperwork on most freelancers, I would imagine!

prostitution and other forms of sex work are a symptom of inequality rather than a cause.

Bang on the money there Cards. And this was the point I was trying to make to Disturbingly earlier when I suggested finding a different job for me that matches my current flexible hours and decent pay.

If sex workers (and women in general) had other options, the sex industry would naturally shrink.

Do you pay tax and NI contributions, Brazen?

I do. HMRC appear to view sex work as a legitimate job, even if some MN users don't.

Disturbingly, sex work in the UK is not fully legalised, so none of what you're saying here as any relevance at all. We're not a regulated industry.

Lass
I am assuming your "sex worker" friends aren't pimps or madams?
That's right. And I think it's unreasonable to hold them responsible for gender or sex inequality because I think it's actually the other way around: prostitution and other forms of sex work are a symptom of inequality rather than a cause.

Brazenhussy0
I thought the piece by Teela Sanders was particularly useful - I'm always a bit sceptical about interpreting statistics around sex work and she makes a lot of good points about context. I'm halfway through the long report - it's really interesting and helpful in clarifying my thinking; thanks again!

So you currently operate without any relevant insurance, I'm guessing you don't pay business rates on your property (if it would even be allowed under the terms of the lease/deeds - many places wouldn't allow you to run a business where customers visit the property), you don't correctly dispose of clinical waste, or follow H&S procedures yourself, but you think that you should be allowed to advertise?

Irrespective of my feelings on the effects on society, no, I don't agree you should be allowed to advertise a service that doesn't even meet basic business operating requirements, before we even get to the actual nature of the business.

Do you pay tax and NI contributions, Brazen?

I don’t use the term ‘sex workers’ because it’s a massive umbrella term and some ‘sex work’ is legal. Protitiution is a more specific term.

I was a telephone sex chat line operator back in the day, I worked from a call centre as a PAYE employee. I’ve also participated in various other ‘sex industry’ type stuff, some of which was clearly ‘a job like any other’ (a women’s sex toy shop) and some of which was exploitative and dangerous (a Mayfair Hostess Bar).

I’ve come out the other side with the understanding that while it can be empowering for an individual woman, it is damaging for women as a political class and for vulnerable women, it is absolutely fucking awful.

I very much support Champion’s position on this.

Oh, then there's the male escorts of course (always forget about them!) The gay sex workers, the trans sex workers, the sex workers who service couples...

Are we all harming society?

The societal baggage is there because what you and your punters do is damaging to society as a whole

It really isn't. We meet up, they pay me, we have lots of (or even just a little) sex, have a chat and maybe a coffee, he sticks his clothes on then leaves. It's sex between two consenting adults and really doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.

I get the argument for criminalising sex work because it feeds into a pornified culture which views women as objects for purchase - I do get that point of view.
However, that point of view comes from a place of not experiencing or understanding what goes on in the room during a booking with an independent escort.
Most of us sell 'The Girlfriend Experience' - punters these days don't just want a quick shag with any female shaped body they can afford, they want a connection, a bit of intimacy, a cuddle and a chat.
It's very different from the street scene, or the BDSM scene, or the 'Porn Star Experience' scene.

Sex workers (and punters) are a very diverse group so it's entirely wrong to make sweeping generalisations about any impacts our work has on society as a whole.

@DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg

So… is that a no then?

Seriously though, this is a thread about Sarah Champion proposing to ban sex work advertising websites and the impacts of that (along with criminalising the purchase of sex in general.)
I’m not entirely sure what relevance Health and Safety has to that discussion, other than to derail and find another way to take a pop at sex work.

But, seeing as it’s an issue you obviously care about, I do think Health and Safety would become more relevant if legalisation were implemented. However, neither side of the debate wants to see sex work fully legalised in the UK.
Under decriminalisation, H&S may also become more relevant, but I imagine in any case the rules around bodily fluids would have to be adapted to suit the industry as it’s obviously unworkable given the nature of the work we do.

If I were to incur increased expenses due to any requirement for insurance etc. I would increase my rates accordingly so that my income did not suffer (thus still earning my weekly targets on the same hours I work currently.) Other sex workers would likely do the same.

As for banning online advertising, it will reduce the safety of sex workers by preventing us from screening our clients effectively, as I already said.
I’m more at risk of being beaten or robbed than I am of being infected by bodily fluids (for what it’s worth, sex workers have lower incidence of HIV than the general population… make of that what you will.)

I'm sure black people working as minstrels didn't want their jobs abolished either but it was necessary for the greater good.