Why do trans folk need 'extra' rights?

This is ALL about birth certificates. It is why anyone who has not bothered up to now to get a GRC wants one. They say over and over it does not control day to day rights.

But it does control the ability to change the birth certificate.

Or, more importantly, right now a birth certificate can only be changed if a doctor accepts that there is a medical reason for allowing that to occur.

So to get one you have to go through the medical assessment and establish proof of need and a medical diagnosis.

The 4900 who have done this - completely in line with the estimates given to parliament by doctors in 2004 when the law was debated - have had that medical gatekeeping.

The consultation document on changes says that the GRA is not working for the people it was created for because so 'few' have one. When it IS clearly in line with predictions when it was written.

It would almost certainly not have been written as it was if the belief was there would be up to 100 times as many applicants and that the vast majority would not have any medical gatekeeping.

I have a GRC and an altered birth certificate via it so have a vested interest, obviously.

But I absolutely believe that medical assessment should stand as the only way to alter a birth record. We should never set the dangerous precedent of putting that solely into the hands of the owner to change as they wish at any point in their life.

My own view is that intersex people (who are NOT trans at all but some of whom have used the GRA to reregister) should unequivocally have that option. And doctors would automatically agree.

Even though I gained from it I am not personally sure that as a transsexual I should have been allowed. But I am willing to put that trust in doctors to decide on the rules for who should and who shouldn't - even if it disenfranchised me as a result. Because it ought to be their say as to how to interpret sex, which is in effect what this means.

Create a new Gender Identity Bill to give all the rights that the trans activists want with regards to changing all aspects of legal gender in an easy manner.

But draw the line at allowing sex to be changed just because you think it should. That needs to remain the decision of a doctor.

Melamin if he is a 'woman' it becomes legal. As legal as a woman changing in front of young girls.

Well now I'm seeing the point - if you want to flash your willy around at women and girls in a single sex environment, then of course the GRA and reducing any hurdles makes perfect sense.

Back to the point I made on the other thread, if self ID is such a small deal, why the absolutely huge effort, bullying, silencing, insidious political lobbying to force it through. If it’s such a nonevent then why try to silence debate? I mean if it is literally just about paperwork, and no actual rights or entitlements will change, what’s the point of the effort? People don’t generally plough such energy and resources into something relatively meaningless. Alright I’ve seen individuals have a punch-up over who gets on the bus first, but not large groups of people expending masses of time and resources arguing over whether they use their contactless debit card or there oyster card to get on the tube.

Very, very, very , very, very good point.

Any TRA's want to step up and answer that one?

Melamin if he is a 'woman' it becomes legal. As legal as a woman changing in front of young girls.

No one asked me if I minded males entering spaces I reasonably expect to be free of their sex.

Trans people are literally just removing some bureaucratic barrier.

I wish to assert my boundary to keep males out. Are my personal boundaries just a 'bureaucratic barrier'?

I think not. My boundaries are my rights.

That's what they 'are literally just removing'.

seems to take hold amongst a very small vocal minority

Not a vocal minority. Four fifths of the population. Only 18% of Britons back legislative change to the GRA.

You can cast MN feminists as a very small vocal minority all you like. It won't make it true. MN feminists represent the vast majority of the country.

You guys are really going to have change the record, now we finally have two robust sets of polling.

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity

Have you ever seen anyone police who enters sex-segregated spaces anywhere in your life?

Assume you’re talking about toilets here, rather than eg prisons?

I don’t care a lot about toilets. I do care a lot about prisons.

Do you think you might be slightly underinformed about what the uninformed ‘vocal minority’ have an issue with, here?

Back to the point I made on the other thread, if self ID is such a small deal, why the absolutely huge effort, bullying, silencing, insidious political lobbying to force it through. If it’s such a nonevent then why try to silence debate? I mean if it is literally just about paperwork, and no actual rights or entitlements will change, what’s the point of the effort? People don’t generally plough such energy and resources into something relatively meaningless. Alright I’ve seen individuals have a punch-up over who gets on the bus first, but not large groups of people expending masses of time and resources arguing over whether they use their contactless debit card or there oyster card to get on the tube.

Well that's not quite accurate is it. If you go back a few decades someone who went into a school girls changing room and showed the girls his penis would have been arrested.
I'm not sure of the exact date that changed, but it is a change.

I am not sure that that is quite legal even now

"Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity"

Well that's not quite accurate is it. If you go back a few decades someone who went into a school girls changing room and showed the girls his penis would have been arrested.

I'm not sure of the exact date that changed, but it is a change.

Some would say that was a vast improvement of course.

I can't see the need for Stonewall and other trans organisations to push self id and remove the exemptions from sex discrimination from the Equality Act.

Trans people can get documentation changed like passport without any GR process and live as their chosen gender.

The exemptions are for when it is proportionate to meet the aim, and are for both sexes, and pretty well all the time where there is single sex provision it is for privacy and dignity which you would think any one with any decency would respect, or it is for things where there is absolutely no point in going if you are not of that sex like screening for cervical cancer with female staff. For groups like mental health and alcoholism, it has been shown that single sex makes a huge difference to women and increases the uptake massively. It is probably the same for men on a lesser scale. You would think that trans people would probably find more benefit from exploring such issues in trans groups as they will not have things in common with either their adopted nor natal sex once you start exploring the background of your problems together.

All women's shortlists were a proportionate (although not without controversy) means to meet an aim ie, getting better representation of women into the political process. You would think that someone who had lived many years as a male (especially into middle age) before transitioning would have some sense and see this is the aim and not push to be included. But here we seem to enter the Monty Python world of where someone is accepted socially as a woman they should then be entitled to and use their 'rights as a woman' to further their own career. And this is the sort of area we get problems where activists are hell bent on pushing their rights as a woman into areas where common sense would say otherwise (see the ATH manifesto), in order to seek validation and others think that they should have it, in order to be nice.

Then, whenever laws and rules of social engagement are changed to accommodate this, you get those who seek validation for other reasons, those who spot a gap they can exploit which then leaves vulnerable groups powerless to combat, as the frail barriers are no longer there and individual women have to fight for their own safety. This benefits no one, including the transgender people.

I can only think that these issues are pushed to their limit by people who just like pushing to the limits, or feel they have missed out on something that has no relevance to them. And that these pressure groups are full of such individuals taking things to the limits for others. They do not bother with critical thinking or the effect on other people because they are only concerned with having an agenda and furthering it.

I can't see the point of the GRA at all. It seems to have lost its point with same sex marriage and easy access to name changes on documentation, and serves only as a tool with which to beat down the exemptions from sex discrimination. Making the process easier just makes this easier.

Have you ever seen anyone police who enters sex-segregated spaces anywhere in your life?

Yes, I have. Quite a few times actually.

No the GRA has no bearing on sex segregated spaces, literally every trans person will tell you that. Have you ever seen anyone police who enters sex-segregated spaces anywhere in your life?

Yes. Bathrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards that I have been on have all had people looking out whether members of the opposite ex are trying to get in. I've been stopped when I accidentally went into the men's room. They are policed, informally and by security if needed.

What makes you think there is a legal process underpinning it when it is entirely unenforceable?

Then why do you want to change the legal process?

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity, there has never been a law on the uk books saying otherwise, however that was clarified and strengthened byt he 2010 Equality Act and 'gender reassignment' characteristic that states in legal terms trans women are regarded as female, and trans men as male, as the default position.

Then why do you want to change the law? What is the benefit to it?

Allowing some exemptions in very restricted circumstances on a case by case basis.

This is what I am worried about, as I do think legal documentation bolsters someone's claim to single-sex spaces. I do not think prisons should ever become unisex spaces, for example.

Trans people are literally just removing some bureaucratic barrier.

You just said it made no difference? So why change it? What about just keeping some kind of gate-keeping process if only to minimize potential impacts on sex-based exemptions?

This whole fuss is being stirred up by transphobes, and believed and supported by the uninformed.

Sorry you feel that way. I personally don't believe in gender ideology, but am a supporter of sex-based rights.

Extra rights?

I'm still trying to work out what rights they don't actually have and want, every time I ask a tea I get insulted.

Does a GRC afford easier access to facilities of the opposite sex to one's birth or not? If you make the GRC process a simple self-declaration, does that increase potential access to single sex-spaces to those born of the opposite sex or not? What's the point of even amending the GRA if the GRC makes no legal difference?
Trans people have always been able to use the facilities of the sex they are born as, so I in theory I can't argue with that point. They just seem to be campaigning for un-vetted legal access to the identity and facilities of the opposite sex, which I find troublesome.

No the GRA has no bearing on sex segregated spaces, literally every trans person will tell you that. Have you ever seen anyone police who enters sex-segregated spaces anywhere in your life?
What makes you think there is a legal process underpinning it when it is entirely unenforceable?

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity, there has never been a law on the uk books saying otherwise, however that was clarified and strengthened byt he 2010 Equality Act and 'gender reassignment' characteristic that states in legal terms trans women are regarded as female, and trans men as male, as the default position.
Allowing some exemptions in very restricted circumstances on a case by case basis.

Trans people are literally just removing some bureaucratic barrier.

This whole fuss is being stirred up by transphobes, and believed and supported by the uninformed.

garam especially sex-segregated spaces that allow trans people to the use the facilities they always have. Are you talking about toilets here ? Because I'm not

The issue isn't trans people demanding lots of mystical special rights, this is about trans people and allies campaigning to stop groups trying to remove the rights they have

Which rights are people trying to remove from transpeople?

GRC gets you the right to change your birth certificate sex.

Passport and driving licence sex can be changed without a GRC.

Nobody can ask to see a GRC, they can ask for a birth certificate to access a sex segregated space or service.

Does a GRC afford easier access to facilities of the opposite sex to one's birth or not? If you make the GRC process a simple self-declaration, does that increase potential access to single sex-spaces to those born of the opposite sex or not? What's the point of even amending the GRA if the GRC makes no legal difference?
Trans people have always been able to use the facilities of the sex they are born as, so I in theory I can't argue with that point. They just seem to be campaigning for un-vetted legal access to the identity and facilities of the opposite sex, which I find troublesome.

I've filled out dozens of forms that have been lengthy, intrusive and contained personal information that has been sent to a panel of people who will never meet me but who get to make decisions about me that will have far reaching consequences

God yes, I hadn't thought about it this way. My son has special needs. This means a daily diet of jumping through hoops, filling in forms, having things like which school he will attend decided by a panel which I cannot attend, do not know who they are and who are extremely reluctant to respond to a subject access request.

No-one should be discriminated against because they possess one of the protected characteristics. Is my son, in having to jump through these hoops being discriminated against because he is disabled? I think I'd have a pretty hard time arguing that in court. The court would say the Government are entitled gatekeep his access to certain things. They are entitled to make me fill out a eleventy billion page form to get DLA because that (in theory at least) means only eligible people get the DLA.

Now I hate the forms as much as the next parent-of-child-with-special needs. But I don't think I could really say it was discriminatory to make me complete it. Beauracratic, yes; discrimination, not really.

Regarding adult mental health services - just been informed that the wait time in my area is 7 years.

SEVEN YEARS.

And that children aging out of CAMHS are required to join the exact same wait list as everyone else.

especially sex-segregated spaces that allow trans people to the use the facilities they always have.

Come again?

I thought they want to use the spaces of the opposite sex to the ones the were brought up to use (their own sex)

Amusing deflection from a forum actively campaigning to remove rights and amend the equality act.

The issue isn't trans people demanding lots of mystical special rights, this is about trans people and allies campaigning to stop groups trying to remove the rights they have, especially sex-segregated spaces that allow trans people to the use the facilities they always have.

Thats precisely why GRA reform that merely attempts to make a process less bureaucratic, is endlessly conflated as having a bearing on sex-segregated spaces so transphobes can seek to raise enough hype and support to remove the access enshrined in the 2010 EA.

Its an utterly foolish errand, but seems to take hold amongst a very small vocal minority.

Exactly KCP