Why do trans folk need 'extra' rights?

heresyandwitchcraft sorry if you felt that it's. Late. And bed time. I also don't want a system that allows men easier acsess to womans spaces hence the consultation to make sure that does not happen but it does not. Make them. Safer by removing me from them as well as many on here wan to do.

Men enter woman's spaces all the time they tend. Not to care about the reason when they do it.
I am against any system which makes it easier for them to do this - which I believe self-ID would enable. I've made my points quite clearly, I think. I don't have much to add here, as it sounds you're rehashing old arguments against sex-segregated spaces in the first place. If you don't believe in sex-segregated facilities, or the relevance of biology, then be honest about it. But know that this "gender" logic pushes a unisex agenda.
OP, I am sorry. I do believe this part of the conversation is derailing the original intent of the thread, and isn't adding to the intended question. I think I will politely bow out here.

Ereshkigal why not answer my previous questions first as no one yet as even tried to address them plead. Feel free to have a go.

Ereshkigal do. You want the actual answer to this one. The thing thst actually happens in. Real life.

The GRC gets sent to the births and deaths and they do the new certificate end of grc as birth certificate is a legal document.

Right exception with a GRC or the correct bird certificate as it should be called. The advert for the job or service can say does not include trans woman due to exemption under ea. As you are all fond of saying you always know we are trans if someone was felt. To be trans then the organisation as the right to ask that question of them as long as this was done in line with the ea in a way that was demonstrated that it was due to the exception the trans person then would not win a legal challenge of discrimation. In reality someone would have to really want to challenge. This all the way to test it. I don't know what would happen if a trans person who no one knew entered service j guess they would just use it

they will not have easier access

Notwithstanding that they will, why don't you address the points about privacy and dignity and rendering spaces unisex?

SarahAr it is not legal to ask to see a grc, it is however fine to ask for a birth certificate which the GRC changes and is all it does. But you can only do that say in interview if you would do that to. Anyone else who. Is not trans

Then how do women's support services apply the very reasonable exemption that they are specifically allowed to exclude biological males, even though they have GRC, from being rape counsellors of women?

Perhaps Sarah can answer as it doesn't seem very joined up at the moment?

heresyandwitchcraft they will not have easier access infact what people propose on here that trans men can use woman's spaces puts woman's spaces more at risk from men who then only have to say there trans men and enter. Men enter woman's spaces all the time they tend. Not to care about the reason when they do it. As. A trans woman I really want to protect these spaces from. Men too as I do not wish to face that same level of violance or assault as you or any other woman.

Bespin
I'm not sure whether we are on the same page at all. My point is that a society with spaces organised around self-identified gender, rather than biological sex, renders all spaces unisex in practice.
The whole reason we have sex segregated spaces is to uphold privacy and dignity. This system works, for the most part. I don't think we should scrap it.
You mix males with females in changing rooms, especially with no vetting process, and it's a recipe for disaster. "Gender" is not going to get rid of the fact that males commit most sexual violence, and the majority of that is directed towards females. I don't want them to have easier access.

Ereshkigal there as never been anything like a honor system in place the laws that cover these spaces have included us for 8 years before that other laws also did.

Technically the law covers biological males who don't pass. In practice it is quite recent that biological males who don't pass who are disrespectful of women have felt empowered to invade women's space. And why women are suddenly noticing.

What are you talking about then? If it is not obvious that is someone is trans why then is there the need to discriminate against them - except on ideological grounds.
I can think of a lot of valid reasons for wanting persons of a particular biological sex and not trans people. This includes for example certain job roles where single-sex spaces for therapeutic purposes is desired, or lived experience might be relevant. For example, if there was a male crisis shelter that wanted to exclude females, I think that would be fine. I think prisons should have a blanket natal sex segregation, with separate, special facilities specifically for trans people as required.

heresyandwitchcraft

Totally beleive in the Easter bunny suspicions of people who do not 😂🐰

You talked about a non binary society but if you don't think it's possible then that's fine. In no way do I think that in 19 lifetimes we will see the stopping of the male objecticsifon of woman or. For that matter trans woman. In no way was my. Post ment to be insulting to. You.

heresy and witchcraft in the second part of your example in a Truely non binary society that would not happen as male objecticsifon of woman would not be a thing as gender would not be a recognised thing

Bless you. Do you believe in the Easter bunny as well?
In all seriousness, male objectification of women has been around since the dawn of time. It is borderline insulting of you to tell me that millenia of male violence against women would disappear with a magic gender wand.

SarahAr it is not legal to ask to see a grc, it is however fine to ask for a birth certificate which the GRC changes and is all it does. But you can only do that say in interview if you would do that to. Anyone else who. Is not trans

Which leads me to conclude that what we need is a strengthening of sex based protections so that trans folk can be legally excluded when necessary. This can only happen if there is an easy way to check the trans status of a person before admission. I'm not talking about toilets here btw.
What are you talking about then? If it is not obvious that is someone is trans why then is there the need to discriminate against them - except on ideological grounds.

Repeal the GRA or at the very least make it legal to ask to see a GRC.
It is legal to ask to ask to see a GRC. But it is not legal to discriminate against trans people (except for a very a narrow exemption). I can't imagine any situation being legal where you don't know a person is trans, but after seeing a GRC you start to discriminate against them.

heresy and witchcraft in the second part of your example in a Truely non binary society that would not happen as male objecticsifon of woman would not be a thing as gender would not be a recognised thing

Imagine what your life would be like if you have to use the male toilets and male changing rooms every day.
And this is what I am worried will happen - because any male who wants to use my facilities will be allowed to do so as long as he "declares" he is a woman.

Well, the thing is females and males need to be considered.
In the non-binary, gender-fluid society, how do you recognise sex-based differences? Won't all spaces become unisex?
What will "trans" be anyways, if all you have to do is "declare" it?
How will you prevent it all from going the road of "Queer Kallis" - where the men took over female spaces and women were forced to leave because they felt uncomfortable?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276075-Sweden-historical-open-air-bath-removes-sex-barriers-for-queer-day-women-driven-home-by-ogling-men

The right to use of sex segregated spaces provided for the opposite sex that they were observed to have at birth

Why do they need that as a right?

Not actually granted by the GRA, but important just the same. So they don't create a scene everytime they use the toilet. So they don't create a scene every time they go to the swimming pool. Imagine a transwomen naked with female primary and secondary sex organs in a male changing room. It is going to cause a reaction. And the male gaze. etc.

Imagine what your life would be like if you have to use the male toilets and male changing rooms every day.

It is that simple.

Ereshkigal there as never been anything like a honor system in place the laws that cover these spaces have included us for 8 years before that other laws also did. Occasionally people have been uncivil towards us normally what as happened is that other people have pointed out that the person is being uncivil and that we are using the facility just like anyone else is. This is of course not ture when a trans person is also being uncivil and people ask them. To leave as they would anyone else. We do have uncivil and also bad trans people just like every other part of society does I wish we didn't but we do.

You see while. There are a number of questions that trans people don't apparently answer even though we do keep trying but they never seem to be the answers that people want. There are some that gender critical people never answer to. The main one being how in a binary gendered sociaty do you meet trans peoples need for safety and legal. Protection from discrimination other than just generally saying proper gender non conforming protections what are they? I suspect I will not get a clear answer to that question.

Yes rufus I also get frustrated with some trans people who decide that they do not need to demonstrate anything but just shout that is not how we gained our rights in the first place so it will not help now

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity

No they haven't. In most cases this is because they pass reasonably well and were discreet and respectful of women and there was a form of honour system in place. Forcing their way in regardless how male they look is a recent thing.

Brill Pratchet how do we do that then in reality where are the services to support that. Also how do you stop people from being discriminated against when they show there grc. What does protecting gender non conforming actually mean is it I will not get beaten in the gents or sexaully assaulted in there which is the main reason I don't. Go in the gents and use the woman's as I have the same general. Need of sefety from men that every other woman as

Beyond that....I can't think of any, and have never heard anyone articulate anything extra that can genuinely be justified (I'm ignoring the "instant facial hair removal on the NHS" demands, and the new one of "this form is too onerous for me to complete" as utter entitlement)

YY. It's strange that they almost never mention the flat or job issues and instead focus on the form filling.

Yes i know that bespin

But you are obviously not the same posters that keep blathering on about on here and twatter and reddit

No, trans people have the rights accorded to their sex and all that's needed is gender non conformity protection against discrimination.

Repeal the GRA or at the very least make it legal to ask to see a GRC. Make the sexs exemptions in th EA a duty not a right. Sorted.