Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

No you really didn't DadJoke

You said ^DadJoke

Here is a defintiion I pulled from the another thread.

Gender identity. The first thing to get out of the way is the use of the word "identify" which sounds like its an act of choice. It's an identity like an identity card - it describes who you are . In the same way that a person "feels" gay, even if they don't act on it, gender identity is an inherent state . So, your identity might be a man, a woman, or other gender. It's not a choice. You might not be able to understand why a person is attracted to someone of the same sex, when you aren't, but it's a real thing. There are examples of people whose gender identity changes, in much the same way that sexuality can vary, but that doesn't mean it's not real. For many of us whose body matches the gender associated in vast majority of cases to their sex, we don't even feel we have a gender. And even if it does match, it does not lessen in any way the very real sex-based oppresion rooted in biology. For example, transmen and ciswomen share the possibility of being raped and impregnated, whereas transwomen don't. It's entirely possible for someone to lie about their sexuality, even for nefarious ends, but that doesn't mean sexuality isn't real.

The relationship between gender expression and gender identity is complex. First, wanting to wear pink is not a sign you are a girl, and I think it's vital to allow children to express themselves without ascribing their behaviour to a particular gender. However, it's not surprising that trasngirls want to be like other girls, even if the gender expression for those girls is rooted in oppression.

So there is sex-based oppression and gender based oppression, then there is oppression suffered by trans people which is not suffered by the rest of us.

I understand why women here want to disasociate themsleves with the idea of gender - but that's conflating societal pressure to conform to a gender stereotype with gender identity, which would be the same in even in an equal society without restrictive gender expression^

My bold. Is this your definition of Gender Identity?
If So, then I repeat my previous question:
In what way does someone's gender identity describe 'who they are,' especially if their gender identity is the literal opposite of an objective description of who they are? What is this 'who they are' if it is divorced from any objective, observable information?
Because it sounds like esoteric dualism, and while I respect your right to believe in it, I resent it's use in encroaching upon my sex based protections.

Dad: you fail to see the fatal flaw, that there is nothing female or male to ascribe to any gender identity if the body is not female or male.

Yes, exactly.

Are you saying that 'gender identity' is a immutable, objective universal thing that everyone has and it cannot be changed, but 'biological sex' is a grey area?

Honestly, how have we got to this point?

You are really struggling with this and i dont know why

Let me rewrite that post for you

We are discussing definitions of "woman." In this model, SOME PEOPLES gender and the body typically associated with it match, and because of that match, there is no cognitive dissonance, so THEIR gender identity is "woman." OR 'MAN' It's not a feeling any more than sexuality is. While there are asexual people, everyone has a sexuality. Because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not real

Stop saying YOU when you reply, thats where the problem lies

whats the difference between personality and gender identity?

Hmm. I think that gender identity, like sexuality, is innate.

So you think that gender identity is innate, but unless your gender identity doesn't match your physical body, you will never know about that innate gender identity?

You can't compare it to sexuality. I know I'm straight because Im attracted to blokes and that is the definition of straight.

I know I'm a woman because I have a female body and that is the definition of woman.

Is anorexia innate fatness?

Dad: you fail to see the fatal flaw, that there is nothing female or male to ascribe to any gender identity if the body is not female or male.

I am pointing out that you might want to give some thought to what you are doing, not saying I want to leave it unchallenged.

they accept the more modern definition of woman

'more modern definition of woman?' 😂What definition is that then?

Is there a 'more modern definition of man'? Has anyone told men about this?!

Rufustheyawningreindeer

I made it clear that "in this model" she would be defined as having a gender identity, and that's what we are discussing.

If someone denies they have a sexuality, do they still have a sexuality?

Ereshkigal

You keep engaging with me, then saying I am mansplaining. I am very happy to stop engaging with you, but when you address me, I assume you want a response. Ideally, let me know.

ALittleBitofVitriol

I defined gender identity up-thread.

ErrolTheDragon

so you don't think people's 'gender identity' is in any way formed by the context of the particular set of gender stereotypes (and degree of enforcement of them ) that they experience? That 'gender identity' is all nature, no nurture?

That is what I take issue with. I'm not 'conflating', I think they're inextricably linked.

Hmm. I think that gender identity, like sexuality, is innate. However, people can suffer from internal struggles as a result of gender oppression, in much the same way as homophobia can cause people to reject or question their own sexuality. Conversely, there is pressure on non-gender-conforming children by some parents to change their gender identity, when in fact they just wish to express themselves outside of societal expectations.

If we confine ourselves to people who have dysphoria, do you think that's innate or cultural? If you acknowledge it's innate, can you accept that gender identity might be innate?

Do you think transwomen who "pass" suffer as a result of structural sexism? I think they do.

The number is quite small. It's possible for any particularly feminine looking man to be mistaken for a woman and they might suffer misplaced sexism too. But most biological males in the U.K. are not going to be mistaken for women.

Nice of you to take time out of your day to mansplain sexism to us benighted horribly transphobic women though.

I think the conflation of the expectations based on gender with gender indentity itself is at the heart of what the hurt and anger felt here is

Fine then, please define Gender Identity DadJoke
Then please define why someone's Gender Identity should be defined as Woman.

Ok according to trans ideology. The body is not woman or man, so the gender identity can't match the body. Undeniable under trans ideology.

Most of the women I know professionally don't share the views expressed here; they accept the more modern definition of woman

You'll forgive me if I don't think you've conducted a particularly comprehensive survey in your obvious bubble. There is no "more modern definition of woman". Some people push ill thought through virtue signalling pomo nonsense which falls apart when asked to provide a non circular definition.

In this model, your gender and the body typically associated with it match, and because of that match,

She literally just said she doesnt have a gender

Ereshkigal

Do you think transwomen who "pass" suffer as a result of structural sexism? I think they do.

dad say for Erish as example, or me, the body doesn't match the gender identity because the body is not 'woman', according to you.

I use "female" to describe sex, and "women" for gender. Usually women are female, and in common parlance I don't have an issue with people conflating the two, though it might be considered a bit transphobic.

your gender identity is "woman"

No. You are assuming based on your ideological belief system. I'm afraid I don't subscribe to it, so I don't think I have a "gender identity". I am just a woman who knows she is a woman and is treated in a certain way by society due to sex role stereotypes.

Ereshkigal It's not my intention to talk over women. I am disagreeing with people, and providing answers to questions on this topic, and to people who have engaged with me. Most of the women I know professionally don't share the views expressed here; they accept the more modern definition of woman, and would consider much of what's said here horribly transphobic. I would much rather engage.

That said, I'll take your point, I will confine my responses to people who directly address me (which I had thought I was doing).

Dad : say for Erish as example, or me, the body doesn't match the gender identity because the body is not 'woman', according to you.

I don't accept it and I will never accept it, no matter how many appeals to female socialisation are made and no matter how many pomo-addled screeds get written and no matter how many threads full of circular non-definitions appear hereabouts. That's it. End of.

This in 95 foot high flashing neon letters.

Ereshkigal

Gender identity. The first thing to get out of the way is the use of the word "identify" which sounds like its an act of choice. It's an identity like an identity card - it describes who you are. In the same way that a person "feels" gay, even if they don't act on it, gender identity is an inherent state.

That's an ideological belief not a fact. I don't have a gender identity. I am a woman. Am I "agender"?

We are discussing definitions of "woman." In this model, your gender and the body typically associated with it match, and because of that match, there is no cognitive dissonance, so your gender identity is "woman." It's not a feeling any more than sexuality is. While there are asexual people, everyone has a sexuality. Because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not real.