Let's all pretend that transwomen are women

I think roleplaying is fine when everyone involved is happy to participate, but it ought to be a strictly opt-in activity.

That's probably it. I hate roleplaying. It makes me feel like a twat.

I am quite prepared, in my daily life, to treat transpeople as the sex they identify with, to use the names and pronouns they prefer.

I'll use whatever name the person introduces themselves with, but I'm not prepared to pretend that I think they're the sex that they clearly are not because it feels like being forced to participate in roleplaying that not only did I not consent to, the idea that I might not consent is considered irrelevant (other than possibly as a reason to punch me). I think roleplaying is fine when everyone involved is happy to participate, but it ought to be a strictly opt-in activity.

Also the whole idea of treating someone as the sex they say they are just sounds like sexist nonsense to me. What does that actually mean? Pull out their chair for them at the table if you're a man and they want to be a woman? Defer to their authority if they want to be a man? I just don't see any way that could play out that wouldn't be sexist and involve me treating them in ways that I wouldn't normally treat anyone.

I am quite prepared, in my daily life, to treat transpeople as the sex they identify with, to use the names and pronouns they prefer.

I feel humiliated playing along with a charade like this. IME it has always felt like their power trip and my human right to be party to open, honest interaction has been compromised.

I feel like I am having to say the Emperor is wearing fine robes though his nudity is staring me in the face. Its degrading.

Agree with you Bertrand

Let's not.

I can't think of any other way of putting it!

However, the specific circumstances where it does matter are ones where compromise is impossible. One group or the other just has to give way.

The definition of 'woman' is 'adult human female'. The definition of 'female' is 'a human being of the sex that can bear young and produce eggs'. In humans this is characterised by the presence of XX chromosomes.

If someone has been born with male sex organs and XY chromosomes then they are not, and can never be, a woman. Dressing as a woman, acting like a woman, calling yourself a woman, having surgery to look more like a woman and imitate their physical characteristics, will make you a transwoman.

You will always be a transwoman because you were born with XY chromosomes and male sex organs - even if the latter are surgically altered at a later date.

Biology is not a feeling. The definition of woman is based upon biological fact.

And I actually think the vast majority of transpeople would agree with me

So do I Bertrand.

And I agree with you too.

If you remove a stallion's penis it does not become a mare. If you attach udders to a bull it does not become a heifer. I will use the name someone gives me, whether it be Bob, Margret or Pixxie Lullabelle Moonstruck and I will use personal pronouns to be polite, but I will not deny reality. The truth can only be inflammatory if we are being compelled to lie.

I am quite prepared, in my daily life, to treat transpeople as the sex they identify with, to use the names and pronouns they prefer. I think they should have all the rights that everyone else has, and live lives free from prejudice, persecution and hassle. In almost all circumstances it doesn't matter. But there are are some very specific circumstances where it does, and we have somehow to come to an accommodation in those specific circumstances. And that's what we need to be talking about. And I actually think the vast majority of transpeople would agree with me.

To answer the OP, let's not.

For me it comes down to one simple question.

If an abused women, who has requested woman only care, does not want to be faced with a male bodied person is she a bigot?

If TWAW is fact, then she must be and that is unacceptable to me.

Therefore I believe that trans women are trans women and there are spaces (and jobs) they must accept are out of bounds for them.

I won't be forced to lie.

That's the bottom line.

Lying about this will harm me, harm my mental health, harm the material reality of life for all women and girls/

I won't be forced to lie.

It's not about whether I can pretend or not.
Pretending has harmed me.

I need to look after my own mental health.

If a transwoman is a woman but I am not a transwoman, what am I?

I am nothing.

This is how I feel, and what my lived experience is. I have been replaced. I am valueless.

Trans women are trans women. I will respect them. I will not deliberately misgender, delight in telling them they are men, deny that being trans is real. BUT I will not pretend that the needs of trans women are entirely the same as those of natal women. I will not pretend that demanding separate spaces for natal women is simply transphobia or bigotry. I will not pretend that trans women actually are natal women.

No, I won’t pretend. I tried pretending that TWAW to be polite and look where it’s got us. You give the transactivists an inch and they take a mile as you cannot ever appease them enough.

Transwomen are transwomen and that is OK. I will not debase myself and my sex and lie and say that individuals with XY chromosomes, facial hair, testosterone and everything else that comes with being male, are women. Not now or ever again.

All that is left to do now is find a name for the half of the populace that are not men or trans

At which point those identifying as women would decide they no longer wanted to be called that & appropriate the new term instead.

The entire TWAW thing is a lie, pure and simple. If they really believed that, they would 'assimilate into womanhood' and fight for women's rights. But nooooo. It's all about 'trans rights' and NOT 'women's rights' at all is it?

They don't fight for 'trans spaces' (like toilets/changing rooms) they want women's spaces.

They actually do not want to be 'treated like women' at all, which is why they cling to 'trans woman', to point out the rather obvious 'not female born' part.

Not really sure why I should pretend that TWAW, when they don't even believe that themselves.

let's All pretend that trans women are women

Said the rabbit to Alice.........,.

Sorry I'm a woman, a woman who's over 40, been through numerous miscarriages, ivf, rape, domestic violence, misogyny etc.

I could pretend. But I won't. Why should I?

thebewilderness
OHHH lets have a committee on renaming maybe the 49.6 percent?

There are no words for the half of the human population that are not males, men, or trans. The men decided they wanted the words woman and female to describe themselves and the government agreed.
All that is left to do now is find a name for the half of the populace that are not men or trans, and decide if they are entitled to any rights at all.

We have words with meaning if we change the meaning then the word changes and you need a new word to take its place.. If you look at the word apple it meant fruit.

So the thing is, most of us here on the feminist boards quite like the word woman to mean female and dont want to change to cis.....

But if someone can come up with something with a nice fruity ring maybe that would be the way forward? NAH to cis maybe yes to amazing goddess to walk the earth,,,,,,,,,

Can natal females become "trans women"? If the answer is no, then the two groups clearly aren't exactly the same, even under trans ideology.

heresyandwitchcraft
There in lies the problem n'est-ce pas?

‘The Treachery of Images’ by Rene Magritte.