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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GRA consultation is live. Let's get reading

108 replies

Anlaf · 03/07/2018 16:05

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

OP posts:
aaarrrggghhhh · 03/07/2018 19:13

The sex/gender conflation is very significant.

I'm quite happy with my OBSERVED female sex.

But pretty happy with my ASSIGNED female gender role.

But I don't appear to fit in anywhere then?

Also - isn't the whole point of all the hormones/surgery etc to try to change SEX - i.e. physical form - rather than socially constructed gender.

It's just a logical rabbit hole.

Elletorro · 03/07/2018 19:12

Friendly Reminder:

This is not a race. Bide your time. Consider waiting to see what others thoughts are before sending your response

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 19:03

We should definitely say it should be legalised to ask for to see a GRC.

Tinlegs · 03/07/2018 19:00

I saw a link to an online one on Facebook and filled it in. Will await further guidance and then get DH to do one too.

Wrybread · 03/07/2018 18:45

Does anyone know....Is this it? As in, so we need to print it off, fill it in and post it off? Or will there be an online version?

OvaHere · 03/07/2018 18:35

Just as a reminder this is the response from the government to the petition. Might be useful to cross reference the two

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Consult with women on proposals to enshrine 'gender identity' in law”.

Government responded:

The Government has not yet decided whether or not to introduce a self-declaration model, and will not change the Equality Act 2010 provisions which support organisations to run single sex services.

The Government has committed to consult on how best to reform the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004. This Act sets out the process by which trans people can legally change their gender. We will publish this consultation in due course. All members of the public will be able to respond to the consultation. Once the consultation has closed and the Government has carefully considered the responses, only then will we decide how to reform the GRA.

Gender recognition is a devolved issue and the Scottish Government ran a separate consultation, which closed on 1 March 2018.

We have been clear since announcing our intention to consult on the GRA that we will ask about how we can make the process of applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate less bureaucratic and intrusive for trans people. That does not necessarily mean we are proposing self-declaration of gender. The Government will consider the results of the consultation carefully before making any decision on how to reform the GRA. We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces. Any GRA reform will not change the protected characteristics in the Equality Act nor the exceptions under the Equality Act that allow provision for single and separate sex spaces.

The Government does not intend to change the safeguarding processes that are currently used in refuges and healthcare services. Providers of women-only services can continue to provide services in a different way, or even not provide services to trans individuals, provided it is objectively justified on a case-by-case basis. The same can be said about toilets, changing rooms or single sex activities. Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

We are committed to a respectful and evidence-based discussion, and, for this reason, we have engaged in many pre-consultation meetings with a range of stakeholders including women’s groups, charities and service providers. We will continue to do so during the consultation. The consultation offers an opportunity for women from all backgrounds to be heard.

As part of our evidence gathering, we are looking at the experiences of other countries who have different gender recognition models. There are countries, such as Ireland, Malta, and Belgium that have adopted a self-declaration model, making use of statutory declarations. We are also looking at countries that do not have a full self-declaration model, such as the Netherlands.

We want to emphasise that any reform of the GRA will not mean reform to the medical treatment that trans people receive, and the age at which they can receive this. Access to treatment on the NHS, including cross-sex hormones (which the NHS allows from 16) and surgery (which the NHS allows from 18), is not regulated by the GRA, but decided on by clinicians. Any GRA reform will not change this.

When the GRA was introduced, it was considered a world-leading piece of legislation. Whilst it has worked well in many ways, over the last decade it has been viewed as outdated. We have heard from many trans people that the current requirements feel overly intrusive and bureaucratic. It includes the need to provide a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and a second medical report of any treatment, proof of having lived for at least two years in their acquired gender, the approval of their spouse if married, as well as the fee to apply, and any associated costs with obtaining supporting evidence. Furthermore, trans people are already able to more easily change their name and gender in their passport and driving license. Streamlining the process of changing their legal gender on their birth certificate, so that they are recognised legally in their acquired gender, would help trans people to have all their identity documents match.

The process of gaining a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), as set out in the Gender Recognition Act, is a Government service that is not working well for the people it is designed for. Only 4,850 GRCs have been issued since the Act came into force. Our research shows that trans people find the process too bureaucratic and hard to use. We therefore propose improving this service, but want to ensure we only do so after a full consultation, to allow us to hear from trans people, and also from women’s groups, faith groups, LGBT groups, young people’s organisations, charities, refuges, and many more individuals and organisations, so that we can decide how best to make these reforms.

The Government is committed to improving the position of women and girls, and supports their rights, safety, privacy and dignity. We are also committed to improving the position of trans people and supporting their rights. We are confident that advancing the rights of trans people does not have to compromise women’s rights, and will work with all groups to ensure this.

Government Equalities Office

jumblefun2 · 03/07/2018 18:25

The easy reader is giving me rage.

This

The Government thinks that there is
between 200,000 and 500,000

Should that not be "there are" for a start?

OlennasWimple · 03/07/2018 18:24

This is para 139:

^ Non-binary genders are not recognised in UK law. Under the law of the United
Kingdom, individuals are considered by the state to be of the sex that is
registered on their birth certificate, either male or female. There exists no piece of UK-wide legislation that contemplates the existence of another gender. Furthermore, there is a raft of laws that are explicitly gendered or provide differently depending on a person’s sex/gender. Some examples of this include: legislation relating to marriage and civil partnerships; legislation relating to pregnancy; and legislation relating to maternity rights and benefits.^

Can anyone find a more egregious example of conflation sex and gender?

Anlaf · 03/07/2018 18:24

Yes, before we engage with the substance of the consultation, including an image of a child self harming is

(GRA Easy Read consultation, image on page 5)

OP posts:
BettyDuMonde · 03/07/2018 18:22

(Needed to get that out of my system. Sorry)

BettyDuMonde · 03/07/2018 18:22

SEX SEX SEX

OlennasWimple · 03/07/2018 18:21

Do you think the government even bothered to proof read it and check it for sense?

Or indeed compatibility with the Samaritans' guidance on handling information regarding suicide

Floorplan · 03/07/2018 18:19

"Easy-Read-Online Limited is the leading company creating easy read documents which are great for people with learning disabilities." So not actually written by the government then? Do you think the government even bothered to proof read it and check it for sense?

Anlaf · 03/07/2018 18:13

Yes yes, we shall be very diligent with page numbers and paras and which doc were looking at (bd67th I am sure we can lend you a hand if you find yourself cursing us on Sunday afternoon)

OP posts:
Floorplan · 03/07/2018 18:09

Yes, Anlaf maybe lets start referring to line numbers and /or paragraphs so bd67th can collate it all more easily.

AncientLights · 03/07/2018 18:09

Not looked at it yet, but already there's sex being 'assigned'. No it is not, not in the vast majority of cases. It is observed, as we all know. Nor is this usually done by a 'medical practitioner', at least not in the UK. It's usually done by a midwife, who is not a medical practitioner. Those are doctors. So not feeling very hopeful about the drafting of this document.

Writersblock2 · 03/07/2018 18:03

@bd67th - you’re amazing and that would be very important work. Thank you. If you get a document out of it, happy to host it on LAWS too if you want (we accept guest posts etc).

Anlaf · 03/07/2018 18:01

bd67th agree it's worth bearing in mind that some people reading this will probably be screenshotting not agree with us.

OTOH many of the lurkers on here will not be in closed groups, and to a great extent I think this should be an open debate- we are talking about a potentially very material change to the law.

A number of groups will probably post their thoughts on the document and key points to think about, in due course.

If you could pull together the inaccuracies THAT WOULD BE AMAZING CakeCakeCake

OP posts:
OvaHere · 03/07/2018 18:00

When we are born, our parents say that we are either male or female.

So as well as those mean doctors and midwives deciding your sex for you parents are also in the firing line for deciding it too.

The insinuation here is that the only way to know what sex you are is based on what adults say.

Absolutely nothing to do with biological observation and reality based on a millennia of scientific understanding that we are a dimorphic species.

OlennasWimple · 03/07/2018 17:58

206 mentions of sex in the main doc vs 580 mentions on gender (and in most of those cases, they actually mean sex) Hmm

beldaran · 03/07/2018 17:56

Thanks Oldcrone and Anlaf, it was one of those questions that looks so stupid written down but at the same time needed clarification even if to just point out the stupidity of it.

If the Government can't get the terminology correct and conflate the two at random, is this consultation even going to be worth the paper it's written on ( I will still be responding!).

It would be interesting to know who assisted with the creation of these documents (cynical person talking).

Janie143 · 03/07/2018 17:56

Both these documents need pulling and rewriting properly. How can the people who are supposed to Govern allow the publication such inaccurate codswallop for such an important issue

bd67th · 03/07/2018 17:54

What I might do this weekend is do a page-by-page takedown of the inaccuracies people are reporting on here.

I can't this evening because I don't have the mental runtime left.

Janie143 · 03/07/2018 17:49

So in a consultation where the meanings of 'sex' and 'gender' are so important, they conflate the two, and use both terms somewhat randomly.
Exactly. You could almost think that it is like that on purpose. So it is impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions or maintain SEX segregation when SEX is the same as gender ( I'm not to prudish to shout sex so everyone can hear)