Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Penny Mordaunt MP: Trans women are women, that is the starting point for this consultation.

134 replies

Macareaux · 03/07/2018 07:20

This is even worse coming from a woman.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
LangCleg · 03/07/2018 11:29

Got an email from my MP's Senior Parliamentary Assistant, saying that the MP had listened to Penny Mordaunt's interview on the Today programme today. And after listening to the interview they had already started a draft a letter to Mordaunt personally before he got my email. Asked if they could include my email in the letter to Mordaunt.

Yay!

See? It works! Keep going, wims.

Popchyk · 03/07/2018 11:27

NEWS *

Right. That was quick.

Got an email from my MP's Senior Parliamentary Assistant, saying that the MP had listened to Penny Mordaunt's interview on the Today programme today. And after listening to the interview they had already started a draft a letter to Mordaunt personally before he got my email. Asked if they could include my email in the letter to Mordaunt.

I said yes of course.

I may now be slightly regretting the robust words I had chosen to refer to Penny Mordaunt's insistence that transwomen are women before the consultation even starts.

Still. Needs must. Grin

LangCleg · 03/07/2018 11:26

Penny Mordaunt needs to be careful not to bias her consultation before it even begins. Legal challenges ahoy if she does.

OvaHere · 03/07/2018 11:25

Definitely write to your own MP about this issue but Penny's email is [email protected] if you want to write to her too

Without wanting to cause offence here the address linked earlier in this thread has a typo and should say parliament.

Please watch for this if you copy paste or your emails won't get through.

busyboysmum · 03/07/2018 11:24

[email protected]

This is the correct email address BTW

AngryAttackKittens · 03/07/2018 11:23

"The starting point of the consultation is that women who're concerned about how this impacts them can fuck off", is how I interpreted it.

QuizteamBleakley · 03/07/2018 11:18

I've emailed my local MP. He's as much use as a fart in a storm but we'll see...

AccioWine · 03/07/2018 11:11

Ok, my mp has been emailed (again). This is a concerning start to the consultation - it sounds like minds are made up. Ug.

BiologyIsReal · 03/07/2018 11:11

I would ask Penny Mordaunt what sex she believes a person with a penis is.

The other thing I would ask is that considering around 85 per cent of trans women still have a penis, does she consider them to be women?

I would also ask if she knows the difference between sex and gender.

Truly, a lie can be half-way round the world before truth gets its boots on.

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 11:08

A man is an adult human male of the sex that produces motile gametes for fertilisation.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/07/2018 11:07

Email any advertisers who sell baby products and let them know that MN is not allowing you to say that a woman is an adult human female. Ask them how if this is not the case women are able to get pregnant, gestate a fetus, and end up with a baby that requires baby food, nappies, etc.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/07/2018 11:05

We just need to keep going. I emailed my local Wet Lettuce too!

But if MNHQ really are zapping GC threads for no other reason than they are GC... then maybe we need to remember we can be as militant as any man!

Wonder what advertisers would do if we mobbed them, and publicised our nastiness in the same way TRAs did?

Can someone explain to me how Twitter works? Grin

OvaHere · 03/07/2018 11:04

Women are adult human females.

The new blasphemy.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/07/2018 11:00

And already threads are being zapped?

It's a consultation, not a royal proclamation.

Pacers · 03/07/2018 10:52

I may just email PM a lovely post I saw on here the other day, don’t think it was on FWR but may have been.

A GP was quizzing a woman about why she was so sure she didn’t need contraception since she had an active sex life.

The poster’s reply...I sleep with a woman!

Laughter and no further quizzing from GP.

In one tiny generation, how have we gone from disclosing homosexuality to a healthcare provider being unthinkable, to disclosing it being literally unsayable?

Because under the changing definition of “woman” that ^ exchange makes no sense: not for healthcare, nor sexuality, nor for language and society at all.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/07/2018 10:49

Thanks Sisyphus I had to do it very quickly, or I would have lost myself in sarcasm and bitterness Smile

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 03/07/2018 10:48

Great letter Curious

I will be writing tonight

OvaHere · 03/07/2018 10:44

How is it reasonable that a government consultation is built around a blatant lie and not just a lie but a lie that no one can actually define in material reality or biology.

This is a shocking misuse of power.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/07/2018 10:44

Here is what Ms Mordant got from me:

Good morning,

I have been reading, with some interest, the opening of the GRA consultation. I am somewhat surprised, and disappointed, that you lead off with a statement that makes much of what will come after something of a mockery.

As you are probably fully aware there has been much ado about "transphobia" in many women's groups. Gender Critical feminists have been accused of 'literal violence' for wanting to openly discuss the possible conflicts changes to the GRA might mean.

Your statement "Transwomen are women, that is the starting point of this debate" is hugely problematical:

a) This is factually incorrect. Biology cannot be denied, sex is sex. Gender may well be a continuum of choice, but sex is either male or female. So how can genetic males be genetically female?

This is one of the fictions that leads to some extremely problematic scenarios, ones that have already happened across the world. For example, men in a women's refuge. I am sure you are fully aware of, say, that long running Canadian case!

b) If that is the starting point then all that follows is useless. Predetermined whitewashing of an issue that effects EVERY woman. You are saying that anyone who starts from a different viewpoint, that transwomen are men, are not going to be listened to. Sadly, that means a great many women will be blocked from any participation as will many transwomen, who make no claims to being women!

c) What about transmen? Where are they in your New World Theory? Why are you so focussed on what men want to the extent of ignoring women, no matter how they present themselves?

Please, before you carry on down this exclusionary path, think about the people who you have been consulting with. Think on these questions:

  • What sex are they?
  • How loud are their voices?
  • How determined have they been to be heard?
  • Why are they so determined to prevent any discussion about sex, biological sex?
  • Why have some of them committed very real physical violence as well as many acts of threatening communication on many online platforms?
  • Why are those very real acts of aggression being ignored and women being threatened with prosecution, losing their jobs, etc, for 'literal violence' AKA saying that transwomen are men?
  • Why didn't you say equally firmly Transmen are men?

And finally, Penny... How do human beings change sex?

I really hope you will read all that I have written and give it some real consideration. Though I suspect you will read a line or two and dismiss me as a crank, a TERF, a transphobic woman. But remember, what you do now will set the shape of our social milieu for some time.

Do you want to be the woman who chose to dismiss women's concerns for the rights and safety of women and girls in order to placate a loud and aggressive group of men with issues of their own.

Don't throw women under the bus, Penny.

Yours, somewhat angrily,

MacaroonMama · 03/07/2018 10:21

Wilmington???!!! WIMMIN!!!

MacaroonMama · 03/07/2018 10:20

Have googled the consultation but can’t find it yet. I imagine FPFW and other groups will provide a cribsheet to help answer.

If Mordaunt is starting with this, then the consultation needs to have a glossary right at the beginning. It needs to define:
Sex
Gender
Gender expression
Gender identity
Woman
Female
Man
Male
Transwoman
Transgirl
Transman
Transboy

It needs to give clear definitions because otherwise we get into a situation like the original GRA and that thing in Scotland where they sneak in phrases like ‘becoming a woman’ and then you have utter nonsense somehow enshrined in law.

I am going to email her now just quickly and ask for a definition to accompany the consultation.

Feeling sick at the thought of all this. My only comfort is knowing lots of others - you splendid Wilmington! - will have woken up with your fighting hats on! Donning mine now... 🎩

In solidarity ✊🏾

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 03/07/2018 10:19

"Trans women are women, that is the starting point for this consultation."

No!

Transwomen are not women. This is a falsehood and falsehoods are not the starting point to any discussion or debate.

We must challenge this statement over and over. We will not accept lies. We will not be forced to tell lies.

This is an ELECTED MEMBER OF GOVERNMENT making a completely false statement and attempting to begin a process that will lead to legislation, based on a falsehood.

At least the Brexit Bus Numbers had some basis in truth, even if they were completely misrepresented.

stillathing · 03/07/2018 10:10

i'm going to write to my mp and PM (thanks gendercritter!)

should charities and services that are not upholding the EA for single sex provision have done an impact assessment before deciding to do so? the two charities i am thinking of really really are for issues to do with natal females so i was very surprised to see their policies bend over backwards to include transwomen. they are both offering services where it should not be offensive at all to exclude transwomen. i am quite confused by it tbh!

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 10:00

Trans'women' are not women. They are adult male humans, and that makes them men. I feel so upset, bullied and distressed by the government's claim that my sex is nothing but a feeling in a man's head.

ChattyLion · 03/07/2018 09:58

This is just such nonsense! It’s oxymoronic. As soon as you say ‘TW are W’ it’s really obvious you’re trying to force one category into another. Two different sets are in that statement- clearly they are NOT one and the same thing.

TW are TW and that is OK.
W are W and that is OK.
TM are TM and that is OK.
M are M and that is OK.

Honestly. Small children know this. It’s not going to fly as public policy despite all Mordaunt's efforts to please men.