Let's call Radio 4 and tell them what it's like to be gender critical LGBT person

I always find it odd when everyone says you don't like dick or if you do your not a lesbian. Now I agree with people that it's stupid when someone puts your transphobic if you are not attracted to trans woman as they are woman and you should be. That does not make any sence if you are not attracted to a type of woman then that's fine. But also people don't get to police who is and is not a lesbian if that person's view is that trans woman are woman and they are ok with being attracted to them. As we are very rarely attracted to. Someone we meet when they are naked we are not usually attracted to there private parts. If when you find out what they are and don't find that attractive then that's fine.
But to say that woman that find trans woman attractive especially post operative ones are not lesbians because your world view does not. Except that trans woman are woman is not allowing someone else the right to define there own sexuality.

I also find the aggressive responce to posters on this thread off putting as no one would condone someone being forced to have sex and I find the comments of tras crass when they try and make such points.

Oh I just heard this and came straight on to post about it!

Oh look, here's another:

twitter.com/exposinglesphob/status/1007361036511477760?s=20

Here's a recent Twitter thread of homophobia and misogyny towards lesbians from TRAs and their allies.

twitter.com/fedupfemme/status/929540876958826496?s=20

That's just how I roll

Right. Because clearly you're making every effort to inform yourself.

The Spectator linked to www.terfisaslur.com because to most normal people it is actually pretty shocking to see the vicious and violent level of misogyny and homophobia from some transactivists. Perhaps you don't get that?

The evidence all seems to be from the same curated website though

No it wasn't. There were videos, articles, recent tweets. Are you implying that the posts on the "curated website" (why is that a problem?) aren't real?

Sure you can. The internet is still there, and the same people are still screaming at women to submit, or die.

I can't duplicate the work because the source material isn't there.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to check facts and sources, especially when we're talking about anonymous websites as opposed to already trusted sources.

It's nothing personal, I just like to know what I'm talking about and research things properly before reaching a conclusion. That's just how I roll, it doesn't affect what you do though.

Even the spectator blog post links back to the Terfisaslur website as apparent evidence of what the TRAs are saying as opposed to linking to the actual TRA websites, so it feels a bit like you've got some sort of self-sustaining echo-chamber going on.

You are welcome to duplicate the work that the aggregator site did if you need to see it all in the original in order to believe it.
It is everywhere. All over twitter and tumblr, Women were assaulted at Pride this year. Ignorance is a choice in the information age.

As a trans woman-I find the concept of "cotton ceiling" completely vile.

Spare us the NAMALT.

On another thread you seemed sceptical of the existence of any evidence. Now you know it exists you want people to stop discussing it?

The evidence all seems to be from the same curated website though, and half of that either doesn't have sources or is from reddit. There are no dates or details on many of the posts and the ones where the links aren't broken (lots of the original pages have been deleted) link through to posts from at least four years ago.

Even the spectator blog post links back to the Terfisaslur website as apparent evidence of what the TRAs are saying as opposed to linking to the actual TRA websites, so it feels a bit like you've got some sort of self-sustaining echo-chamber going on.

I'm not saying those posts didn't exist at some point or that TRAs didn't write them, but it feels like you're dining out on an old story rather than something that's actually happening to real life women now. As I said before when you offered to share your evidence, I'm prepared to keep an open mind but would want actual facts before committing to a viewpoint like this.

You've got all this flimsy 'evidence' that trans people are apparently going around saying this or that, and then, when someone who's actually trans comes on the thread to condemn the rape culture, you tell them to stop talking and go away because they don't understand. So a trans person says they think X, and you tell them to shut up and turn to everyone else to tell us that trans people think Y.

I appreciate that some bisexual people have been harassed via OLD and that's obviously not acceptable and no-one should be pressured into sex ever, but I have never heard anyone IRL use the term cotton ceiling, I think it's creepy and I agree with 2rebecca when she said:

The cotton ceiling sounds like a flimsy made up thing but is women saying no

Oh well - bring on the next string of 'cotton ceilings' or telling me to fuck off...

Um, I'm not sure why Clare deserved that response OP

Anyway, just to lower the tone...

this captures the hideousness of the whole concept and doesn’t beat around the bush!

Did this make anyone else snurk, or am I the only one with a puerile sense of humour

Can I recommend that anyone who responds to the imminent GRA consultation uses the phrase "cotton ceiling" at a relevant point? For example as "anyone who does not know what the term "cotton ceiling" means should not be developing policy on this issue"

As a trans woman-

I find the concept of "cotton ceiling" completely vile. The thought that I would pressure someone into sex who did not want it repels me. I would never support a trans woman seeking sex with a lesbian against her will, any more than any other person doing that. So if there is a rape threat I am with the lesbians opposing it, and I hope most trans people would feel the same way.

@2rebecca believe me there is nothing positive about it and I suspect that lesbians will agree with me. The TRA who made it up intended for it to sound like the glass ceiling, treating sex with lesbians as something to aspire to, a goal. The TRAs who subscribe to this are the trans version of incels. Trincels? Traincels?

How unfortunate that all the words we need to describe what's going on turn out to be so problematic.

Convenient for those who'd prefer that the fact that there's a problem with the behavior of some trans activists remain hidden though, no?

Banned even. Effing dictate.

Cotton ceiling
Bets on this will be the next band phrase on mumsnet.
Cotton ceiling
Cotton ceiling
Cotton ceiling
Just gonna say it a few more times before it goes.
Cotton ceiling
Cotton ceiling

Agree my understanding of the cotton ceiling is that it's a phrase first used by transwomen against lesbians so I don't understand lesbians seeing it as a positive phrase. It's creepy and makes no sense. The glass ceiling is for women to break through. The cotton ceiling sounds like a flimsy made up thing but is women saying no

@2rebecca, "cotton ceiling" is what some TRAs call their lesbian-raping tactics. We can only talk about how some TRAs coerce lesbians into sex by using the term "cotton ceiling". We have to be able to say things like "some TRAs try to guilt-trip lesbians into sex with bepenised people, here are some links to articles where they do this, they call the fact that lesbians don't want dick 'the cotton ceiling', google for it". We have to be able to call out their narcissistic sense of entitlement by highlighting how they talk about it.