Let's call Radio 4 and tell them what it's like to be gender critical LGBT person

Next verse, same as the first.

(Points if you spot where that's from.)

But I mean women being told if they wont' do XYZ in bed or fuck a certain person then it makes them mean, or bad, or difficult^ or whatever, is nothing new either.

And the literal violence thing - if you won't go out with me I'll hurt myself and that will be your fault - it all sounds teh same - it sounds the same as every whiny bloke since ever. Every whiny bloke who won't take NO for a fucking answer.

These ones are making youtube videos about why women who say no are bad evil women who are causing actual phyisical harm to the people they say no to.

I mean it's right there in your face, exactly teh same, and we have heard it 100 times before.

Sorry for multiple posting am catching up.

Re the "some TRAs might be awful but most are nice and lovely"

IME MOST men are capable of sexually coercive behaviour. MOST men, even the "lovely" ones, will have their moments.

This is standard, cultuarally approved male behaviour.

What we see with this cotton ceiling stuff is not unusual or weird, it is standard normal everyday male sexual entitlement / coercion. The only thing new or special about it, is that the ones doing it, believe they have the moral high ground when they do it. That is somethng quite special to behold.

"I always find it odd when everyone says you don't like dick or if you do your not a lesbian"

I don't.

A lesbian is a female homosexual.

No-one says that gay men might well be into a nice spot of cunt if they just relaxed a bit.

"no one would condone someone being forced to have sex"

Men all over the world condone this every second of every minute of every day.

Let's be clear - female consent to sex is a "nice to have" at best in most countries in the world.

Male sexual coercion of women and girls is not illegal and is seen as entirely normal and even culturally desirable. Men "wearing women down" is a standard "romantic" trope in mainstream films in the west. Not taking no for an answer.

I imagine you meant on this thread?
Women in general - the vast majortiy of women - have experienced men and boys trying to sexually coerce them from often quite a young age (teen boyfriends etc) and we KNOW what it looks like and we KNOW what it sounds like.

Just wanted to put that out there.

"You've got all this flimsy 'evidence' that trans people are apparently going around saying this or that, and then, when someone who's actually trans comes on the thread to condemn the rape culture, you tell them to stop talking and go away because they don't understand."

So a facebook link from planned parenthood toronto trying to justify the session isn't good enough evidence.

Right well the standard of "evidence" being demanded is going to be too high for anyone to meet then which is surely the entire point.

Interesting for any lurkers to see, I imagine.

Just catching up

I posted the Facebook response from planned parenthood toronto who had funded / organised the event that the seminar was at, their response is directly about this particular session.

And there's a person (people ?) saying oh lala it's all made up where's the evidence you're all lying bastards?

OK whatever

great lesbian woman on near the end who raised the issue of the marginalization of gay women

Article from 'Unherd': 'Why does the Left hate gay Tories?'

(extract)
"The propaganda from the Left against gay Tories is relentless
Don’t believe me? Visit the homepage of Pride in London and do a search for “lesbian”: no matches. Gay men and lesbian women are being written out of the official transcript of 21st-century homosexual British life. It’s not wrong to wonder “why?”

I’m aware of the potential irony, here, in a gay man complaining about usage of the word ‘gay’. The point is that the word itself is being deleted, along with the noun to which it refers; ‘LGBTQ’ is not a new synonym for ‘gay’. I am a gay man, not an ‘LGBTQ’ one; ‘LGBTQ’ is a political identity, not a sexual one (and ‘queer’ is a word I’d recommend not to apply to me, not within earshot.)

To understand why this is happening, ask any woman — gay, straight, Left or Right — who queries the demands of some transgender lobby groups that gender no longer be defined as anything to do with innate biology. (Note: my ire is aimed at lobby groups, not people, all of whom deserve dignity and respect.) Such pressure leads at best to the farce of charities targeting their cervical cancer campaigns at ‘human beings with a womb’, rather than ‘women’; at worst to the abomination of rapists self-defining as women in order to be moved from male to female prisons. And the women who question this are monstered, de-platformed, vilified, censored: the attempt to silence their (very mainstream) opinions is as alarming as it’s informative."(continues)

unherd.com/2018/06/left-hate-gay-tories/

'UnHerd.com is a new media platform with a double mission. Our aim is to appeal to people who instinctively refuse to follow the herd, and we also want to investigate ‘unheard’ ideas, individuals and communities. We focus our journalism on the significant events going on in the world, filtering out the distractions to give our readers what they really need to know.'

On now

That post was for Longines.
Sorry, cross posted with you Eresh.

So you’re aware of its existence online and you condemn it, but we must be chatting paranoid bubbles in a feminist echo chamber because it can’t really be a thing because you haven’t seen it.
Or the condensed version, I know it sounds scary, but it’s not really happening so stop being silly.

I’m trying to re-read your words and reinterpret them, but all you’re doing is saying the same thing again as you said before, and try as I might, I can’t interpret that in any other way. I can’t find any hidden meaning in it whatsoever, so either your words are inaccurate and inadequate, or they are perfectly accurate and you’re uncomfortable with me interpreting them as such.
If you’re uncomfortable with your opinions, change them. If you don’t want me to know what you think, don’t post. It is not mine or any other woman’s job on here to interpret your words as you‘d like us to. This is an Internet message board, letters arranged into recognisable words with recognisable meanings is how we communicate.

That trans person did nothing wrong on this thread and was up front about the fact they're trans

This is not the first time this person has posted on MN. If you're lucky, they'll link to their blog.

HotRocker I said I could understand your paranoia about trusting people online who could actually be TRAs and I could understand feminists feeling vulnerable to attack online.

I didn't say people were imagining that these events were happening or were paranoid. I asked for evidence and reviewed and queried that evidence.

I've heard a lot of people saying 'it's terrible if this is happening' and I agree, but there's lots of unacceptable and invalidating behaviour towards lesbians and bisexual women that I do see and experience on a regular basis, and that others in my circles talk about IRL, so if this were happening in my circles, I would expect that I might hear about it.

None of the transwomen I've encountered in the LGBT dating scene have behaved in such an entitled or aggressive way that I've experienced or seen. Conversely, I do get a lot of shit from straight men which prevents me from living my life the way I want to.

I'm really not denying that people might be facing pressure and I obviously object to everything about the sentiment of the cotton ceiling 'theory', but I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing this up with my friends as something that I've heard is actually happening without having some confidence that that's true.

Which is fine, as I can do my thing and other people can do theirs.

Peace.

HotRocker great post at 8.39, thank you.

Longines, so what you’re saying is you need to see it happened to one of us in front of your face before you’ll believe it, and until then you’ll just view it as us being paranoid.
Is that from the same page of the TRA playbook as ’well if a man rapes you in the changing room you can call the police?’
Well what a wonderful person that makes you out to be I must say.
There’s the bus, under you go, paranoid bitches.

“ But to blame all trans people for the actions of some is prejudice.

Do point out where anyone is doing that.”

DJLippy’s outrageous response to ClareFlourish.
TheBewilderness “Spare us the NAMALT”

Do point out where anyone is doing that

The OP shouted down a trans person who condemned the cotton ceiling and said they had no right to speak as they're trans.

That trans person did nothing wrong on this thread and was up front about the fact they're trans - if they're genuine, then it must have taken a great deal of courage to come onto this thread and identify as trans and state their (perfectly reasonable) viewpoint. I don't know whether these two posters have a history together so it might have been that coming through, but on the face of it, it looked like a prejudiced reaction.

I really hope some of you get on You and Yours. As DJ says, it's a brilliant program. I'll have my fingers crossed for you.

But to blame all trans people for the actions of some is prejudice.

Do point out where anyone is doing that. Not accepting gender ideology and politics is not the same thing. You can't change sex, they have not done so, and women need to have rights. And many transactivists would like us not to. That's the long and the short of it.

These loud people on social media are not irrelevant. They are the mouthpieces of this movement. They are getting laws and policies changed at women's expense. There is a huge misogyny and homophobia problem.

relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3259650-Lesbian-gets-banned-from-LGBTQ-messaged-board-for-trying-to-talk-about-the-lesbophobia-in-trans-activism

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2762142-So-im-transphobic-for-saying-someone-with-a-penis-is-biologically-male

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2892440-Are-Genital-Preferences-Transphobic

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3083956-Janice-Turner-again-in-The-Times-about-lesbians

The Spectator linked to www.terfisaslur.comm* because to most normal people it is actually pretty shocking to see the vicious and violent level of misogyny and homophobia from some transactivists. Perhaps you don't get that?

No, I get that. I agree it's shocking, which is why I took you up on your offer of evidence.

I've seen the demonstration videos and I'm not in any way suggesting that some extremist TRAs hold these views and are pushing them on social media. But to blame all trans people for the actions of some is prejudice.

Many of my friends and colleagues are also lesbian or bisexual and we interact regularly with normal, reasonable transwomen (many of whom are also friends or colleagues). I've just not encountered anything like the type of extreme TRA views or attitude seen on Twitter IRL and so if I'm more sceptical than most, it's because I'm weighing up crazy people on social media (where clicks are everything and controversial opinions achieve this aim) against my lived experience of lesbians, bisexuals and transwomen interacting normally on a daily basis. So I admit that perhaps I need a higher threshold of evidence than a person (and I don't mean you, just generally) who has only met angry extremist TRAs at rallies and seen the extremist videos online. Which is similar to how islamophobia seemed to evolve in the UK too).

I'm not denying that there are extremists or misogyny and I'm not condoning those views in any way, and I do challenge my trans friends when they discuss gender stereotypes in ways I feel are damaging to women (they usually haven't realised, because it simply wasn't on their radar).

I understand that people on the feminist board are paranoid about being infiltrated and I completely get why, and I know it's sometimes best to assume everyone on an anonymous forum is an enemy until they swear their allegiance, but I feel that this also has the unfortunate side effect of stifling debate because anyone who queries sources or disagrees with an opinion is assumed to be the enemy or trying to push a specific agenda, which can give off the impression that people on here are closed-minded and unwilling to justify their position.

Actually DJLippy I have experienced men coming on to me, not taking no for an answer, using power to coerce me. As a trans woman.

Besp, it’s not ok when a group of male bodied people come along and appropriate our word, that specifically defines us, then demand we all comply, even with our bodies. Especially when males have been fetishising us for ever, asking us if they can watch, if they can join in, asking us intimate questions about our relationships, for their own titillation, and getting nasty/angry/violent with us when we don’t comply. This is not happening in a vacuum, and we‘re all too aware and used to mail sexualised behaviour directed at us.
Lesbian means homosexual female. It is not their word, they are not expanding the bandwidth of what it is to be a lesbian, any more than I as a white person am expanding the bandwidth of what it is to be black.
Mail bodied people don’t understand what it’s like to have this creepy threatening rapey bullshit aimed at them because it doesn’t happen to them because they do not have female body, and if they don’t have a female body, they are not a lesbian.
The only thing I want to hear out of men about the cotton ceiling is no, this is unacceptable and I wholeheartedly condemn it. Not no but but but. No does not have any buts. But in this case means homophobic rapey behaviour is acceptable if x, or it’s ok for y to do it because why is z. It is never okay to say but homophobic rapey behaviour is alright because, or not happening because. If a member of an oppressed group you aren’t part of tells you that something is happening, believe them, or are we back to the days of racism doesn’t exist because I as a white person haven’t experienced it?

Magdalen Berns