Gender neutral school uniform = Trousers

Sorry that was in reply to no

If you read the rest of my post you will see why I don’t think it’s justified.

Up here in the grim north, we have a lot of haredic and hasidic Jews, the woman and girls of which wear skirts for religious reasons concerning the prohibition of "women in men's raiment". I was nodding along with most of rhe thread until I remembered them. They tend to go to jewish schools, but any chance of mainstream schooling would be tanked if they had to wear trousers. They also swim in women-only swim sessions so need female spaces to stay for females.

One type of regime has women being told what to wear and it's not a liberal democracy
That's irrelevant in a discussion about school uniform. Boys and girls are being told what to wear while at school. It's pointless having a uniform if the school isn't allowed to set what the uniform is.
I too am disappointed to see a choice removed from girls... and dismayed to see feminists supporting it
Yet we're always being told that feminism isn't about choice, so why wouldn't feminists support it if they think the reasons justify it?

Good article in the Guardian about this.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jul/02/banning-school-skirts-uniform-misogyny-upskirting-sexualisation-blaming-girls-gender

Why should girls and women be held responsible for the reprehensible behaviour and desires of men and boys?

One type of regime has women being told what to wear and it is not a liberal democracy.

Yes, the style of skirt would need to be difficult for students to shorten.

Why 'kilts' rather than the standard A line or pleated skirt? The only reason is because kilts are accepted as being a form masculine attire. hmm

Fairly sure it’s because kilts can’t be readily shortened by adjusting the hem - dedicated skirt-shorteners have to resort to rolling the kilt up at the waist, which is easily spotted and easily reversed.

My secondary school was all girls so when we rolled our skirts it was to be rebellious and see at what point the teachers would say something, not because we were trying to attract the attention of the nonexistant boys. But I'm sure some of the blokes in this thread will find a way to make it about saucy little minxes trying to arouse them anyway.

I suggested a kilt, because I would want it to be tartan, specific to the school, so it has to be bought from a single supplier. Worn knee length, and pleated for ease of movement. If it was a kilt, then I think more boys would be open to wearing it as well. As hugoagogo said, many school uniforms already have kilts for girls, I'd guess that there would be more girls than boys currently wearing kilts.

I understood that the objection to trousers was due to the removal of skirts as an option for girls, many school uniforms currently insist upon kilts for girls;so surely adding a trousers option for girls and kilts as an option for boys would be fair?

Why 'kilts' rather than the standard A line or pleated skirt? The only reason is because kilts are accepted as being a form masculine attire.

It's not dissimilar to Chesterton Fence, I think.

If you personally don't understand why people make a certain choice, don't take that choice away lightly.

(Large parts of the UK call trousers pants as well, but it always confuses me too.)
I really like the third option of a kilt for girls and boys, but most of all welcome trousers for girls and boys.

I too am disappointed to see a choice removed from girls - and dismayed to see feminists supporting it.

I still remember my first few periods when I'd go to school wearing two sanitary towels and still get flooded. Trousers would have been a humiliation. Please think about it.

Did you see the quote from a girl in The Times?

'“If any teacher believes seeing a child’s leg is in any way ‘too sexual’,” states the petition, “they should be sacked immediately for gross misconduct.”'

Urgh

So many things wrong with the head's statement. "Decency" FFS

SisyphusWasGenderCritical Mon 02-Jul-18 18:11:04 bewilderness By 'pants' I am assuming that you are from North America and you mean what is otherwise known as trousers and not what the British call pants and you call underwear?(Please make it be so....)

I forget sometimes that we are divided by an ocean, a continent, and a common language.
Yes, trousers are called pants here in the People's Republic of the Puget Sound. Uncomfortable clothes are pants, in your sense of the word, was my point.

Id like to ask the head exactly what he means by ‘decency.’

Normally when people say "does it fit well" they mean is it the right size and comfy, don't they?

Yes that was an odd assumption to think it meant something different wasn't it?

Trousers are super comfortable and practical and fit/suit everyone- even those girls they don't fit or suit in any sense of these words.

These are the best school (unisex) uniforms I ever came across. You can wear what you like underneath so lovely and warm in the winter and cool in the summer. Hideous to look at, but at least everyone looks hideous.

Sardines, I am not sure when men and women say things fit well they mean the same thing. And I know that I mean something different to the teenage dd.

Think of the pockets. A man is happy to load up the pockets because they don't mind that it affects the line of the trouser. Despite my best feminist opinions, I know a notice if I have a paper tissue in my pocket. It would feel less comfortable.

Or belts. Most men in my workplace have belts because that gives flexibility over the waist size. They don't expect a perfect fit with no bunching.

And my teenage dd was quite capable of saying that something was not comfortable as a proxy for it doesn't look good to me. the fit and comfort was correlated to the colour.

I bet most women who are struggling to walk properly will tell you their shoes fit and are comfortable.

What we see affects how we feel about something.

Like others, I'm so utterly fucked off that choices are being taken away from young women in the name of trans rights

And women who call themselves feminists colluding with and cheering it on.

bewilderness
By 'pants' I am assuming that you are from North America and you mean what is otherwise known as trousers and not what the British call pants and you call underwear?

(Please make it be so....)

I would have no problem with it, but would also support a kilt as an additional option for both sexes, from a single supplier, available in a range of both waist sizes and length, and with strict rules of length enforced.

So generic trousers or shorts, or a kilt that fits.