Gender neutral school uniform = Trousers

I'd rather wear trousers than have mandatory "boys in skirts" days like mermaids transactivists probably want! But that's just me, I never liked skirts but obviously girls shouldn't be forced to wear boy clothes

The sad thing here it's that you all are saying uniform trousers are not flattering for girls.

I think people are actually saying tailored trousers are uncomfortable for alot of women and girls. For some people they are tight in the seat, dig in a camel toe, cut in your hips, flash your butt when you sit down or are too tight around the tighs.

I have never had a comfortable pair of trousers, hence why I stick to skirts, i can wear jeans but they have to be from the tall range at Topshop or newlook.

Are you actually reading the same thread as me? It's not a desire to show flesh or look pretty though teenage girls often do want to do or experiment with both of those it's a fitting, form comfort issue for many of us. Girls/women have a different shape to boys. Removing our choices and prioritising those of male bodied persons is misogyny

The sad thing here it's that you all are saying uniform trousers are not flattering for girls. And guess what? They're not for boys, but doesn't matter because boys doesn't need to be pretty, right? They can look cool with comfy clothes that doesn't fit every tiny curve of them or show something.

So the depressing message we're giving to our girls is: you have to show something or wear something that show your curves to go to school because if not in other case you would look bad.

Look around you. Who do you think by societal unspoken rules, are wearing the most uncomfortable clothes? Is that something we want to pass to our children? I mean, they're going to learn it, of course but should we really say to a girl: "right wear a skirt because your bum looks awful in trousers" like Lass it's implying in the post before.
So who are sexualising who? The ones that says girls should be comfy so out the skirts or the ones saying the girls should look good?

I really see your point about girls having a choice, given that feminism is about women choosing, but I would like to live in a society that doesn't put girls or women need (I would say more requirement) to look good on top of the list.

Also don't you think we need to draw the line somewhere? I work as an engineer in a really big company (I going to leave the sexism I face everyday for being the only woman there for another post ) one colleague has big muscles and he likes to show them and one day he came with an sleeveless shirt and immediately was disciplined for that. So, are we taking the choice for him? Are we sexualising him? No, my company wants a professional but relaxed looks.

It's bad to shame girls because they're showing skin, as much that thinking we shouldn't say something no matter how short the skirts are. Roll the skirt up it's not rebelling with society (I can't believe I've read that here) it's following the trend that society wants for girls, to look sexy, the same that waxing everything isn't rebelling against anything.

but that doesn't mean they want to wear tailored trouseres

The girls at my son's school have not done so despite the choice being available.

Thats already the default though, because many women freely choose to wear trousers, whereas virtually no boys choose to wear skirts /dresses

And so what? Many women and girls freely choose dresses and skirts.

I never saw my son's first girlfriend wearing trousers. They were at the same school so I saw her in school uniform kilt, dresses with leggings, tops with leggings, shorts with opaque tights but jeans or trousers- no.

Tailored trousers would have been a nightmare for her. She was tiny with a slim waist but a curvy figure. If trousers fitted her waist or height they wouldn't have fitted her bum. But who cares if you can have gender neutral.

Our school allows children to wear any skirt or trousers they like, as long as they are black. A lot of girls wear black jeans or leggings. They're also allowed to wear any shoes they like, as long as they are more or less black. So some wear trainers. I really like this level of flexibility - uniform is simply never a problem. They're also allowed died hair, long hair for boys, etc. I don't see why other schools can't take this approach and concentrate on teaching rather than uniform.

There seems to be something specific about school uniform that leads girls to dress in a different way, and I think head teachers should be able to address this.

I think this is because out of school we can wear jeans, leggings, tracksuit bottoms etc. These are stretchy and tailored to woman's bodies and so comfy. You will very rarely see a girl or woman outside of an office/work setting wearing tailored trousers.

At school they have the option of tailored trousered or a skirt. Most women and girls would in this case prefer a skirt. Of course we'd mostly prefer jeans, but thats not an option.

Look at dress down days. They all wear jeans, but that doesn't mean they want to wear tailored trouseres.

The really stupid thing is, most offices are allowing jeans and chenos now. So the schools don't really need to enforce this fo-office wear anymore. They could just let them all wear jeans.

the gender neutral just happens to be the male default. Funny that
Thats already the default though, because many women freely choose to wear trousers, whereas virtually no boys choose to wear skirts /dresses. In my town it's unusual to see girls and women wearing skirts during the winter, and even in the summer many women still opt for trousers, shorts, those all in one things (playsuits) and yes, some dresses and skirts but very rarely as short as the ones that girls wear as part of their school uniform. I can guarantee that when these girls go to non uniform sixth form college (no sixth forms in schools in our area) the vast majority of them will choose to wear trousers (skinny jeans most likely ). There seems to be something specific about school uniform that leads girls to dress in a different way, and I think head teachers should be able to address this.

The girls are simultaneously less able to be provocative, and better protected.

Hey let's ban skirts for all women, then no one will be raped, right.
(that was sarcasm incase you think I'm being serious)

I first went to a co-ed high school, it was 'free choice' for the girls whether to wear the 'tunic dress' or trousers. I found myself wearing trousers for the most part, way more comfortable.

As for the floody period thing in the teens, yes, I had that too. It would not have mattered whether dress or trousers really (floods being floods, the same anxiety level involved). Although back in that day, our sanitary products were "surfboards" (and about as absorbent). And always worried if the gigantic 'bulge' of surfboard would 'show' with the trousers. These days, they actually invented absorbent sanity products!

At the all-girls school for my final years, polycotton dresses in summer and kilts in winter. Being in the all-girl environment, less anxiety about 'accidents' or 'bulges', but bloody cold in winter with the kilt.

I do like some of the proposals of (so-called) 'gender neutral' being the default of trousers, therefore no 'trans kids' business. But the other side of that, the 'gender neutral' just happens to be the male default. Funny that.

Heads they win, tails you lose.
Life as a female within patriarchy.

Personally I find trousers very uncomfortable and have always preferred skirts. I find jeans a special kind of torture.

I don’t like how trousers show my figure much more than a skirt.

What about Muslim girls?
When I traveled around India, women in trousers and jeans where considered very provocative for exactly this reason. Your shape was clearly shown.

Why do girls lose the choice and have to behave like boys.

In many parts of the world men do wear “skirts “ and dresses. They should be allowed to here.

I'm in my fifties haven't worn trousers ever my hip/waist/thigh ratio has always made trousers uncomfortable. Currently my thighs require a 12/14 my hips a 10/12 and my waist a 10. my school in the 70s introduced a crimplene trouser suit for girls and banned skirts (nothing is new!). that I had to wear a large size and my mum attached extra belt bits.

And to hell with the girls who find trousers uncomfortable?

They put the brain of a woman who is like that - who does dress her body to be generally sexually appealing to the male eye - into the head of a 13 year old girl... But I do know that it's incorrect to put assumed intentions of a fully mature, sexually active, experieneced woman who enjoys dressing to show her body off, onto a young girl.

But I think that is a very important link to what's happening. Adults who are in charge of schools see young girls who are performing the actions of grown women who are displaying sexual signals. (Which in itself involves lots of assumptions, but let's accept that most people believe such signals exist.) So it makes adults uncomfortable to see the kids acting out in what seems like a sexual manner, whether the girls see it that way or not. Making the girls wear trousers (dressed the same as the boys, can't be worn in shortened form or peeped up) seems to be a solution. The girls are simultaneously less able to be provocative, and better protected.

Nothing in your post however justifies taking the choice away from girls.

Nice" or "pretty" or "atractive" in our society for women = taking your clothes off

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

I think that allowing anyone to wear trousers or skirt isn't gender neutral in practise only theory , because the boys ( in most cases) won't wear skirts. So you are giving the students the opportunity to demonstrate gender specific behaviours. Applying an unwritten rule if you like. Good for a transgender solution but less good if you want to promote gender neutrality as a general concept /manner of behaving within a school

They seem very stuck on only black socks with trousers though! Standards y'know.

So the rebels can daringly flash a grey ankle?

A gender neutral uniform would be to specify skirt, shorts, trousers, and allow all students to wear any of it. That's all and it's not very complicated. Girls that prefer wearing skirts should not have that option removed in the name of "gender neutrality".

This is exactly what DD yr 5 School has done. Much the best option. They seem very stuck on only black socks with trousers though! Standards y'know.

I rolled my skirt up for the same reasons I dyed my hair, wore make up and smoked. I wanted to rebel, I wanted to look cool and dangerous and I wanted to look grown up. It never crossed my mind that I was making myself look 'avalible' to older men, because I was a silly teenage girl. I soon realized that 'look' got the wrong sort of attention. So I shaved of half my hair and went punk.

So poor children (the ones who are apparently so favoured by having to wear uniforms) have to wear clothes that don't fit? Not such a big deal for blazers which are just a bit swamping if they are too big (looks a bit dumb but then the uniform = smart rule is another largely fallacious argument) but a too big kilt is at risk of falling off, too small and it's very uncomfortable. Clothes designed to be unalterable also very unhelpful for poorer families or those that do not have standard physiques.

I think lots of girls don't realise looking good is basically looking sexy - I didn't - but I think it's right for adults to realise this and ask whether/how we should react to it.

I m trying to untangle what goes on in our ( my anyway) unconscious brain. And trying to untangle the impact that biology has on behaviour.

I remember me and dh having a laughing fit when we realised how the posture/voices of a group of girls changed when some boys drew near. It was clear the girls were unaware of what they were doing ( we must have talked about it later) but they were nevertheless responding.

And yes, I do strongly believe that just because something is a biological instinct there is no right to act on it, that's what civilisation is all about. And I unfortunatly know sexual perverts do use " it's natural" as an excuse.

I guess iceweasel has children that don't grow very much (either up or out). No, average, in the same size clothes as their age. Most parents I know get two years out of school clothes, they buy a size up.

We wore incredibly short skirts at my single sex, private school.

I wasn't doing it for the boys, I was doing it because it was what you did, and the girls who didn't do it were considered to be sad / square.

All of this is great to consider from a feminist POV becasue of course it is bound up in patriarachy, and no free choice etc, just the idea that girl in short skirt = wants men and boys to think she's sexy is just way way too simplistic and in many cases totally off the mark.

Single sex schools show some differences in some aspects, but children travel to and from school and mix with people others than in school,so even in single sex schools children are still exposed to external pressures. so there are some interesting differences, indicative but can't fully answer my pondering. B

And one skirt every 2 years... hold onto that thought, year 11 and 12 we managed with just one.