"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread

Standing with my lesbian sisters.
We won't stand by and see our sisters silenced or abused, erased from the narrative.
Courage calls to courage everywhere.

Yes. I remember reading a blog post in which two trans identified individuals giving each other blow jobs in a parked car was described as "hot lesbian sex".

Are there people around who believe that two male-bodied people in a sexual relationship could actually be lesbians if they say so? Is there no end to this madness?

Well said.

I know that commenting on people's appearance is rude and often unkind, so I'm making a general point here, not pointing at anyone in particular.

So much of our sexual attraction to other people is based on physicality. Starting with sexual orientation, but beyond that we all have preferences for appearance. It's not the only thing of course, but it tends to be where we start.

We might be more attracted to tall men or blonde women or people with long hair or bohemians or men in suits or whatever. I suppose everyone has been surprised by a sexual spark with someone who isn't their usual type, but physical attraction is an important component of most relationships.

If you are a 50 year old, six foot male who decides to express yourself as a version of womanhood, chances are your physical appearance is not going to match your inner perception of yourself.

Your pool of potential partners immediately shrinks because, while the dating pool for middle-aged men is probably quite large, the dating pool of women-attracted women who are willing to accept male genitalia and are attracted to someone who's outward appearance is unusual is much, much, much smaller.

The decision to transition will limit potential partners, that's reality. No-one owes anyone sex. As humans we owe other humans respect, compassion and kindness, but not physical or emotional intimacy.

It's deeply offensive, that having made a serious life decision, they are unwilling to live with the consequences and make such efforts to shame women into making their bodies available.

You can't force someone to fancy you; not through blaming, shaming or aggression.

All women are disadvantaged by men promoting the idea that there is no sexual orientation for women; there are only preferences we were taught and if we refuse to to have sexual relations with male bodied people we are bigots.

Also yes I support you and want to do more to get your voice heard.

Am dealing with a man at the moment who is enthusiastically defending the erasure of natal sex. He thinks he's progressive and represents a group of left-wingers who know exactly what he's doing and saying. Not trans, normal bloke who goes home to his wife and kids. People might think the misogynist homophobic views on this thread are extremist. They aren't. They are supported by men like this who watch blithely as evil is done, or speak up in favour to bolster their own standing.

RiverTam i have a 23 year old niece who is gay and dating.

This middle aged straight woman stands with you.

Also i cant help noticing that not being content enough with smearing the Grenfell residents the LRB are now telling lesbians they must accept cock.

Quelle surprise.

People who think we're just being mean assume that if self-ID goes through it's going to be 90% sweet, gentle, fey male people wanting to access women's spaces

But if a sweeping generalisation, isn't it?

Anyone who thinks it's a bit of a low blow to laugh at a transwoman's dress sense, especially when it risks detracting from the real issues is also assuming all those things?

People who think we're just being mean assume that if self-ID goes through it's going to be 90% sweet, gentle, fey male people wanting to access women's spaces. It's not. There are far more people like Michelle than there are of the Thai khathoey type of trans person they're assuming they're agreeing to open the door to.

We're objecting because we know what's coming, and it's Michelle and many others like them.

I know. This is what it means for women to lose their spaces.

You're not talking about nice, decent men. Because nice, decent men won't to do it. Nice decent men do not want to discomfort women.

So what are you left with?

Michelle telling you that if you object, what do you expect other than a violent reaction?

Oh Datum....that video.

The comments below it pretty well sum it up for me.

Bouffant hair and gloves in the video Datun linked is pretty much a one-person peak trans machine. The deliberate choice to get in a few kicks at abuse victims was particularly lovely. Also the "what do you think is going to happen if someone feels threatened" (by rogues pronouns), and the implication that they can't help attacking people because they're on artificial hormones.

You have no right to refuse to date someone

What? What? How the hell could anyone think that any sentence beginning that way could be even remotely rational or acceptable?

I can refuse to date anyone, and I dont have to justify myself. Neither do you or anybody else.

The person in that video reposted on gendertrend... they were wearing elbow length gloves! I mean, there's plenty of mean and personal things i could say about the appearance of that particular person but - true as they would be - they are unnecessary. But elbow length gloves? Where the hell were they going next - the ambassador's evening reception?

How can anyone get dressed up like that to make a supposedly serious point and then try and claim that it isn't just about wearing women's skin fancy dress?

The coercion and erasure of lesbians is, I think, the thing that makes me most angry about all this. Not the only thing - but I think it is the very peak of it all, for me.

But reading this thread has reminded me that I had a dream about Magdalen Burns last night She was yelling stuff.

"You have no right to refuse to date someone who belongs to the gender(s) you are attracted to solely because of what's in their pants. This sort of exclusion is transphobic and invalidates our gender identities."

And there I was, thinking I could refuse to date anyone for any reason. Not being chattel, and all that.

Another straight woman standing up in support of lesbians.

My view is that people should be reaching out the lesbians in question who are encountering these issues, as opposed to publicising the cotton ceiling as a concept.

The term in itself encourages rape culture and I think that by giving this term and the idea behind it any oxygen, it will actually make things worse for lesbians as opposed to better.

Personally, as a lesbian, I'm not comfortable with people who don't stand to be disadvantaged by this term (i.e. non-lesbians) promoting its use as it is designed to threaten and to make lesbians feel vulnerable and it is the term itself that implies sexual violence, regardless of the person using it.

It's very clever of whoever revived this term online and started bringing it to the attention of feminists as it has the effect of using women against each other to make lesbians feel more threatened.

I'm glad other women have my back, but I really wish people weren't using the term - please reach out to the lesbians you know who are being affected by the harassment if you want to show support.

Yes Sarahconnor1, a relation has just come out as lesbian. Not a close one. She's 18 and I do worry about this lady dick thing

And straight women can empathise somewhat-from our perspective in that we have also always been pressured to accept dick that we don't want

I've been thinking for a while whether I should or could add to this because as a straight woman I didn't know if my voice was wanted or needed.

But when you strip this down this is people born male coercing people born female into sex by whatever means. That's something most women have experienced and understand. So yeah it makes me furious.

I'm thinking of young lesbians or those that have recently come out who may be struggling, might be facing issues with family, homophobia etc, they had spaces they could go to where they could be themselves, understand their sexuality and develop confidence, if those spaces whether irl or on line are now places for trans women still fully intact male genitalia , who are claiming to be lesbians and where there is some social pressure to accept lady dick that must be an absolute mind fuck.

I hope my heat exhausted ramblings makes sense.

It’s the constant, of course you’re allowed to choose who you sleep with, but, if you exclude transpeople you are a bigoted transphobe bullshit that gets on my nerves.
Well I’m afraid that’s a big shiny tough shit, because yes, I am allowed to choose who I sleep with, so fuck off, because it’s got fuck all to do with you.
Yes of course it’s up to you but but but…
But nowt
They either think people have the right to choose or they don’t. Clearly they don’t because they don’t shut up, and they don’t fuck off, and if we are such hateful bigots, as they say, then presumably they wouldn’t want to shag us anyway, so an even better reason to fuck off.
They think they’re so woke and original, but I wish I had a pound for every man who tried to convince me I’m not really a lesbian, and that his dick can magically correct me. Fucking hell even my own mum and sister and friends tried to pull that you just haven’t found the right man shit.

At least if it was original it would give me something different to think about, and some new lines to try out, but it’s the same old homophobic corrective rapey shit, and I was already very bored of it, even before this cotton ceiling transgender ideology bullshit came around.

As someone said ages ago on another thread - if they really believed they were lesbians they'd fuck each other

Well put.

This sort of exclusion is transphobic and invalidates our gender identities

Cry me a river.