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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the left collapsing?

82 replies

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 12:48

I recently watched an interesting video from a controversial YouTuber arguing that the left have taken the contractions and absurdities in the ideology to their logical conclusions and are now slowly collapsing m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd2FTtu0sVE&t=3024s
This vlogger isn’t a feminist and seems to be an old fashioned liberal from the past. So I wondered what feminists who are not onboard with trans agenda though, if the same conclusions are being reached by those with different political perspectives? I’m particularly interested as I was a Labour Party member who quit the party in disgust and joined UKIP and this youtuber is one of several high profile ones that have recently also joined

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 15:00

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 14:54

Its open v closed society. Liberal v Authoritarian.

The very definition of liberal has been hijacked and distorted in various ways. Today when someone says liberal, what they actually mean is neo-liberal economics (aka economic libertarianism) rather than liberal values of equality which are best summed up in the US Constitution:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

What we are seeing is the idea that all people are not equal. Identity politics rather than aiding equality, has lost sight of the point about equality being about the most vunerable in a situation regardless of their identity.

Identity politics is much more of a hijacking of the ideals of liberalism by twisting and exploiting them for gain in order to produce inequality and to gain power.

The problem is really that people who are comfortable and don't understand the underlying principles of rights and why there was a need for them, don't really understand why they worked. Its complaceny.

Liberalism exists BOTH on the left AND right, and neither has done a great job of educating people as to the value and principles enshrined within it. Instead, the economic temptation of neo-liberalism has proved to hard to resist and very much unmined the balance of power, leading to exploitation and abandonment of those principles of all people being equal and worthy of respect.

With that context, those who are being exploited no longer feel that the contract of democracy, in which power is given to government by consent of the population, is working for them so look for alternatives. Of course this dis-satisfaction is also being exploited within this by authoritarians, but people do not yet feel the betrayal they have felt from those who profess to support liberalism. Its too early in the cycle, and the promise of a better future is very much still on the table. Hope is something which is incredibly difficult to crush within the human spirit.

This won't dissolve until authoritarianism has shown its ugly side - destroying that hope, or liberalism has managed to get rid of that cynicism and can offer a better alternative in which something better is on the table.

Arguably, it has already reached a point whereby liberalism can not defend itself, without the ugliness first showing itself in all its horror.

I certainly don't think this the fault alone of the left. Both the left and right have failed, through their own shortsightedness.

And its certainly not too late to start get back to the basics of why rights exist and what they protect us from, rather than simply parrot like stating that feminism is about equality of the sexes (its not). Unless you have the undertstanding behind the principle it can (and is) be used maliciously against that.

Indeed with the rise of authoritarism, it most definitely is the time to getting back in touch with those foundation stones and to learn lessons from them in order to limit the extent of the ugliness.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 14:44

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Bamc1977 · 02/07/2018 14:20

I was a leave voter too as it happens, I really don’t think I am in denial. I don’t believe labour support free speech anymore and think I probably should have always been in ukip

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 13:24

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placemats · 02/07/2018 11:34

I liked the O'Toole article and I love this one:

medium.com/@tswriting/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.p304x8f48

This UK government is so insecure it relies on a bunch of homophobic politicians to shore them up.

Bamc1977 · 02/07/2018 11:04

“I have just realised the ironic hilarity of this. Its as if the angry left abandoners maybe doing so because of their own tendency to try to find offence in everything haha. Which is exactly why they think they are abandoning.“
They’re abandoning labour because they believe as a point of principle that free speech must mean no criminal sanctions or police harassment for expressing opinions that others find grossly offensive and that nobody has the right not to be offended. At least this is my reason and the reason of those others from YouTube that I know of. Labour moved from being the party of “I don’t agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it” to “it must be illegal for you to say that because it is divisive or offensive”. For me the irony is that those who once supported these restrictions on free speech and are now critical of the trans agenda are finding out that the exact same tools that they used to silence others can also be used against themselves. I don’t find it funny though, scary more like.

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 03:03

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:53

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:51

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thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 02:43

All I did was point out your Freudian slip.
We have not talked at any time to either agree or disagree about anything, but thank you for telling me what I think and then shouting at me.
Go well.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:27

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:19

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:10

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thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 02:08

When you switch liberalism to libertarian your freudian slip is showing.

GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 02:02

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GardenGeek · 02/07/2018 01:50

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ItIsOnlyAnOpinion · 01/07/2018 22:31

I don't know. Being afraid will not help, I know that much.

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 22:27

“The hard left and far right, extremism and authoritarian behaviour is stronger than ever, the centre and democracy are collapsing.”
But where do you think we will go once the old political centre left and centre right melt away? Is trump and the new governments in places like Italy, Austria, Poland and Hungary going to be the old order? Are people like Justin Trudeau and Angela Merkel the last of a dying breed?

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ItIsOnlyAnOpinion · 01/07/2018 21:37

The hard left and far right, extremism and authoritarian behaviour is stronger than ever, the centre and democracy are collapsing.

thebewilderness · 01/07/2018 20:38

Authoritarianism is always resurgent because about 60% of the population have authoritarian tendencies.

Bowlofbabelfish · 01/07/2018 20:28

That Fintan O Toole article is bang on.

It is fucking terrifying. We are being groomed en masse to accept the unacceptable.

Seeing those children removed from their parents - just barbaric. I see them and I see my own child cry. And I can’t understand why anyone else can look at that and NOT see their child cry. That pic today in the news of three drowned toddlers/babies in the med - how can anyone look at that and be unmoved.

The narrative in the press is that if you’re moved by this or object then you’re for totally open borders. It’s like there’s no nuance allowed. Only black and white, us and then, goodies and baddies. But no toddler is a baddie ffs.

heresyandwitchcraft · 01/07/2018 20:16

I feel exactly the same. But I’m an individualist, not a feminist.
That's a lovely sentiment and I thank you. However, the point is that making sure every female feels they are included, from a structual sense, is a feminist issue.

Bamc1977 · 01/07/2018 20:08

“The Left had better not fall apart, because the Tories are ripping up the raisons d'etre of good government”

Well in Germany where they have PR the mainstream centre left and right (Merkel and the SDP) are polling less than 50% between them now. The old political centre ground is rapidly melting. I expect Sweden to deliver a shock next. I’m trying to understand what is happening as I am convinced that the western world is entering a new political order and the old order that arose after WWII (but especially since the 1960’s) is collapsing. I’ve no idea where we are going though.

“I don't need STEM fields to be 50% female any more than I need 50% of the fishing industry to be female. But I want 100% of females to feel like they could go into STEM or fishing if they wanted to, and that these fields would be as easy for them to enter as it would be for any male.”
I feel exactly the same. But I’m an individualist, not a feminist.

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heresyandwitchcraft · 01/07/2018 20:02

My heart sinks when I hear arguments using it because they are always, without fail, being used to Justify Bad Shit.
Yes. Times a million. I love your voice in this thread, and elsewhere. But I think it's important that we acknowledge the essentialist view that is being used to justify positions in this debate. People get super upset about racial "differences," but have not problem with sex-based ones. My argument is it doesn't matter!