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Original poster

Does the government consultation re changes to the GRA start this week? Janice Turner thinks so

112 replies

R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 08:11

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-gender-battle-is-harder-to-solve-than-brexit-0jc0pn867
Janice Turner The Times:

(extract)
If Brexit is the most divisive issue in British politics, requiring a talent for squaring ideological circles and cajoling compromises from bitter enemies, reform of the 2004 Gender Recognition Act (GRA) runs it a close second. The consultation, long-delayed while three successive ministers for women and equalities scratched their heads, is finally launched on Tuesday.

Although even that isn’t official. Bizarrely the government wouldn’t confirm (or deny) the date. But I’ve seen emails: groups will give evidence in late July, a sleepy summer recess slot calculated, perhaps, to contain the GRA firestorm. Some chance.

Opposing forces are drilled for battle. On one side the trans lobby, including Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence, who claim changes to the process by which a trans person acquires a gender recognition certificate (GRC) are merely a tiny administrative tweak. On the other, feminist activists who fear that a legal redefinition of “woman” from biological sex to the nebulous, inner feeling of “gender identity” threatens female safety and privacy....

Most controversially she sought to replace the GRC process whereby a person must live in their new gender for two years and have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels their identity is opposed to their biological sex). Instead Mrs Miller proposed “self-identify”, ie a man could simply declare himself a woman with no requirement to transition physically.

The report caused a furore. Without hearing evidence from a single women’s group, Mrs Miller also proposed abolishing exemptions to the 2010 Equality Act which allow domestic violence refuges or hostels to admit only biological women. Interviewing Mrs Miller last year, I was flabbergasted by how little she had thought this through. She saw no conflict of rights at all: women, she said, must learn to accept without challenge male-bodied people using their changing rooms."
(continues)

Link to previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

OP posts:
Writersblock2 · 30/06/2018 11:56

It’s important that all of the organisations we have formed respond as organisations because there will be clout there, and as many individuals as possible. Get your friends, families and partners to respond too.

I agree we should have organised responses where we can. It’s also important to share widely on social media and help people who may struggle in filling it out.

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 11:44

One of the problems with the consultation will be thinking that an adequate consultation involves e.g. Asking women's aid as an organisation. Most of them have been groomed.

Exactly. Queer theory and pomo has infiltrated the top of all the corporate third sector.

The consultation must hear grass roots orgs who are actually still in touch with their own service users.

Pratchet · 30/06/2018 11:22

Lucy from Deptford is another key voice, and Ruth Serwotka, as an experienced trade unionist, is another. Stephanie DA must be listened to on schools.

Polly Carmichael said it's easy for teenagers to get a trans diagnosis because they just go online and find out what they need to say. I really hope she is called.

Pratchet · 30/06/2018 11:20

All they need to do is actually listen to one person to start the ball rolling. One person, like Nic Williams, will point them to all the problems of listening to the larger organisations and not the users. Girl Guides is a prime example: a top-down, anti-female policy that is opposed by parents and pack leaders.

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 11:15

We need to make sure they consult more widely. These organisations have to toe the trans line to get funding. It's not what service users want and transactivists have shown that they don't care.

Pratchet · 30/06/2018 11:13

One of the problems with the consultation will be thinking that an adequate consultation involves e.g. Asking women's aid as an organisation. Most of them have been groomed.

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 10:58

Primogeniture

Poppyred85 · 30/06/2018 10:49

Are they still planning on making women who identify as men exempt from inheritance laws (sorry for the life of me I can’t remember the legal term)? If so I think this really needs to included in publicity too. The impact on women’s service is absolutely crucial but I think including this point really highlights the hypocrisy of it all. This is not about making things easier for trans people, it’s about validating the identity of TWAW.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 10:11

or even small groups of individuals with specific shared experience, knowledge etc.

Collective comment?

OP posts:
LangCleg · 30/06/2018 10:07

I have been wondering if there may be mileage in small informal groups of sumbissions or comment which focuses on particular aspects eg re clinical trials, data, homeless provision, gyny services, schools, cultural/religious groups etc etc.

In short, small orgs to carry out impact assessments on their service users should self-ID be instituted?

It would have to be the small orgs - all the big ones are headed by pomo-addled nitwits.

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 10:05

The trouble with polling is, as we know, that the broader population don’t have an informed view on the issue. Most are like I was - wanting to be nice and helping people who seem to be suffering, and not realising what a Trojan Horse is presented by this campaign.

The Wings Over Scotland polling was clear (about transition status under self-ID). Even with an under-informed population, the results were 3:1 against self-ID.

We need proper polling which asks about things like mixed sex overnight accommodation on school or Guides trips; male sex offenders in women's prisons; penis in changing rooms with girl children. Etc etc.

Pratchet · 30/06/2018 09:52

This comment is terribly sad. Women are suffering.

Does the government consultation re changes to the GRA start this week? Janice Turner thinks so
Original poster
R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 09:47

Bowlofbabelfish

I have been wondering if there may be mileage in small informal groups of sumbissions or comment which focuses on particular aspects eg re clinical trials, data, homeless provision, gyny services, schools, cultural/religious groups etc etc.

Being mindful that the way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time.

I think there are so many (possibly unintended) consequences and theres value in the focus not always being political / ideological.

OP posts:
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 30/06/2018 09:40

The trouble with polling is, as we know, that the broader population don’t have an informed view on the issue. Most are like I was - wanting to be nice and helping people who seem to be suffering, and not realising what a Trojan Horse is presented by this campaign.

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 09:32

Comments on the article are refreshing.

I think someone, somewhere, needs to pay for some more polling. More questions than Wings Over Scotland did but along those lines. We need evidence of public opinion on the underlying issues.

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 09:21

Once this is all over I want to send both Janice Turner and James Kirkup some sort of gift basket in thanks for their persistence in getting this issue in front of the general public while the rest of the media were doing their best to bury it.

Same here. They've been heroic.

Pratchet · 30/06/2018 09:21

Ah, I see that is not the event as this was already referred to upthread.

Pratchet · 30/06/2018 09:17

I saw this yesterday. This it? Reading in. (Also please look at my Twitter thread thread. Don't add to it. Just look at the link)

Does the government consultation re changes to the GRA start this week? Janice Turner thinks so
OP posts:
Original poster
R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 09:09

including ensuring those too intimidated to speak up have a safe and secure way of doing so, anonymously if necessary.

See current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3292541-Heads-up-to-all-ManFriday-members
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291058--ManFriday-group-closing

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 30/06/2018 09:08

Right. Who gets consulted? Where?

How do we respond and make our voices heard? I’m presuming a letter to my MP is the start. What else?

Wanderabout · 30/06/2018 09:04

They are saying they have done an impact assessment (I realise the question is about age but I would hope the impact assessment would cover ALL protected characteristics?!):

Yes it definitely should. The government really dropped the ball on this type of assessment of trans issues. I hope they do a thorough, honest and proper impact assessment, including ensuring those too intimidated to speak up have a safe and secure way of doing so, anonymously if necessary.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 09:01

Reported this week:

A transgender woman who was unable to access her pension was discriminated against by UK law, the European Court of Justice has found.

The woman - known as MB - was refused the female state pension at 60 because she chose not to annul her marriage.

MB said she preferred to stay married to her wife "in the sight of God".

But a court has ruled a person who has changed gender does not have to annul the marriage they entered into before that change, to receive a pension.

Under the UK's 2004 Gender Recognition Act, trans people acquired the right to formally change their gender by obtaining a full "gender recognition certificate".

But the law states a certificate cannot be issued to a married person who does not have their marriage annulled on the basis of their gender change.

In the UK, women born before 6 April 1950 can apply for a state pension at age 60, while men born before 6 December 1953 must wait until 65.

MB, who was born male in 1948, married in 1974 and had two children. In 1991, MB began to live as a woman and underwent gender reassignment surgery in 1995, but did not apply for a gender recognition certificate.

When she reached her 60th birthday in May 2008, MB applied for a state pension, but was refused on the basis that legally she was still a man, and should therefore wait for the male pension at 65.

MB challenged the decision and her case went to the UK Supreme Court, where the judges were "divided" on the issue.

Supreme Court judges referred it to the EU Court of Justice for guidance... continues

concludes:
"After almost a decade, MB will finally be paid her pension and recognised as a woman by the government," they said in a statement.

"This is a small decision but it has great importance in the move towards increased equality and respect."

The case will now return to the Supreme Court to apply the ruling, but MB's lawyers said they are "hopeful" the Department for Work and Pensions will apply the ruling "without delay".

www.bbc.com/news/uk-44612117

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 30/06/2018 08:59

They are saying they have done an impact assessment (I realise the question is about age but I would hope the impact assessment would cover ALL protected characteristics?!):

The Government will publish the consultation on the Gender Recognition Act before summer recess. We have assessed the impact of consulting on reforming the gender recognition process as part of our Public Sector Equality Duty.

Here: www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2018-06-19/155328/

PencilsInSpace · 30/06/2018 08:51

I've read in a few places that it's starting next week. The LGBT action plan with the results of the survey is due out on Tuesday I believe.

We know the consultation will launch before the summer recess which starts on 24 July, so whatever the exact date, we don't have long.

Pension age equalises this year so there wouldn't really be a financial impact in that sense.