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Original poster

Does the government consultation re changes to the GRA start this week? Janice Turner thinks so

112 replies

R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 08:11

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-gender-battle-is-harder-to-solve-than-brexit-0jc0pn867
Janice Turner The Times:

(extract)
If Brexit is the most divisive issue in British politics, requiring a talent for squaring ideological circles and cajoling compromises from bitter enemies, reform of the 2004 Gender Recognition Act (GRA) runs it a close second. The consultation, long-delayed while three successive ministers for women and equalities scratched their heads, is finally launched on Tuesday.

Although even that isn’t official. Bizarrely the government wouldn’t confirm (or deny) the date. But I’ve seen emails: groups will give evidence in late July, a sleepy summer recess slot calculated, perhaps, to contain the GRA firestorm. Some chance.

Opposing forces are drilled for battle. On one side the trans lobby, including Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence, who claim changes to the process by which a trans person acquires a gender recognition certificate (GRC) are merely a tiny administrative tweak. On the other, feminist activists who fear that a legal redefinition of “woman” from biological sex to the nebulous, inner feeling of “gender identity” threatens female safety and privacy....

Most controversially she sought to replace the GRC process whereby a person must live in their new gender for two years and have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels their identity is opposed to their biological sex). Instead Mrs Miller proposed “self-identify”, ie a man could simply declare himself a woman with no requirement to transition physically.

The report caused a furore. Without hearing evidence from a single women’s group, Mrs Miller also proposed abolishing exemptions to the 2010 Equality Act which allow domestic violence refuges or hostels to admit only biological women. Interviewing Mrs Miller last year, I was flabbergasted by how little she had thought this through. She saw no conflict of rights at all: women, she said, must learn to accept without challenge male-bodied people using their changing rooms."
(continues)

Link to previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

OP posts:
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Original poster
R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 20:36

Fairplay For Women press release in response to the Govt announcement tomorrow:
fairplayforwomen.com/press_consult/

Request on twitter to share to media outlets.

OP posts:
DJLippy · 02/07/2018 13:14

What's it like to be LGBT in the UK today? That's the question on tomorrows You & Yours phone in - a Radio 4 consumer affairs show (12.15 - 13.00)

I think this is a warm up to the GRA consultation being launched this week. Basically, I think it will be the TRA show - a chance for the BBC to do some more GRA propaganda. I think that gender critical lesbian, gay and bi-sexual voices should get an airing.

They want submissions for tomorrows show. This is a brilliant programme - and they have some of the best producers working in the British media right now. Let's write in and tell them what we think.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qps9/contact

Original poster
R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 12:51

From the extended interview with Nick Robinson, Paris Lees made it explicitly clear that in any debate she wanted the focus to be on children and young people.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3270344-Paris-Lees-interviewed-by-Nick-Robinson-on-Radio-4-now-on

From significant article in The Guardian 2013:
'Voices from the trans community: 'There will always be prejudice'

(extract)
"Part of Burchill's critique of trans campaigners was to suggest they are a small, educated minority who punch well above their weight. Whittle admits trans people tend to be well educated but says this is a legacy of them having no jobs to go to. Whittle, Lees and Burns all came from humble beginnings and are now smart, networked individuals.

In 25 years, Barrett has seen trans people become "a networked bunch" – more so than other people, he thinks – thanks to the internet. Lees, who also works for Trans Media Action, says social media is the "essential catalyst" for the transformation of trans people in society. "Society is in transition and we've woken up from the operation and there's no going back. We can't pretend that trans people don't exist any more," she says. "People have been taking the piss out of trans people for 60 years. The narrative on trans issues has been controlled by people who have no understanding of them. Social media is about us grabbing the narrative back and telling our own stories – this is our reality, this is what we go through and this is what matters to us. We're here, we're in your face, we definitely exist. That's the most important thing – realising we exist." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

OP posts:
Pratchet · 02/07/2018 12:42

This is the line they will be pushing. Victoria D could not have signalled it more clearly: place trans kids in direct opposition to women's and girls' safeguarding.

It must be challenged hard with the studies that show suicide rates remain high after transition: and that suicide ideation is the same in all other children who have mental health issues. ROGD will also be incredibly important, as will detransitioners.

AccioWine · 02/07/2018 12:34

It feels like there is a lot of wilful blindness when it comes to this issue.

Will there be a public announcement, do you reckon, when the consultation opens or will I have to trawl the website?!

Original poster
R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 12:24

yes!

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 02/07/2018 12:13

Can no-one else see the overlap between the need to protect vulnerable teens (including those who are struggling with trans issues) and the need to retain women only spaces?

Original poster
R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 09:39

Never forget transactivist Rebecca Root's awful quote on Victoria Derbyshire: 'The suicide statistics are in our favour'.

This was the first time that I heard the 'argument' that as some women had hystectomies trans women were similarly women because they didn't have uteruses, also made by Rebecca Root

There were also appalling demands made of a woman who was speaking about her experience of needing to use refuge following domestic violence.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 02/07/2018 09:21

What nonsense.

LangCleg · 02/07/2018 09:17

Mean feminists are ignoring trans teenagers by worrying about women's safe spaces

Of course, mean feminists have never spoken about children's best interests. Of course they haven't.

Pratchet · 02/07/2018 09:13

So it's the 'vulnerable kids' but with a new twist - the claim that actually talking about women's safety has a negative impact on teenage mental health.

Never forget transactivist Rebecca Root's awful quote on Victoria Derbyshire: 'The suicide statistics are in our favour'.

Pratchet · 02/07/2018 09:11

I wonder what this week’s threat/goading theme will be?

I found it

'Mean feminists are ignoring trans teenagers by worrying about women's safe spaces'

Does the government consultation re changes to the GRA start this week? Janice Turner thinks so
LangCleg · 02/07/2018 08:58

Bewilder Rufus AAK

The upcoming consultation has a context that includes safeguarding, consent, boundaries and the integrity of safe spaces.

As I often say around here, the first step in any woman's personal risk assessment about someone who sets her spidey senses tingling is to say no about something trivial and see what happens.

These two points are not unrelated.

LemonJello · 02/07/2018 08:49

Just remember that you will need to respond to the consultation in your real life name which, on the basis of past consultations, is generally published.

Snappity! Stop scaring the nice feminists you norty thing.

T’will be as pencils says:

  • do not publish
  • publish anonymously
  • publish with my name

Otherwise it could be open to being challenged because, as you noted, it may put people off responding.

Pratchet · 02/07/2018 08:45

Yes, going back to kids and Section 28? Ironic since transitioning is basically a form of gay conversion therapy.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 08:31

I wonder what this week’s threat/goading theme will be? Sweepstake anyone?

Its culmination of Pride month and the parade in London next weekend. Likely that some posters will be referencing the experiences of the gay community.

OP posts:
Pratchet · 02/07/2018 08:07

there seems to be an alert set up for a certain keyword being used in a thread

I saw a TRA once talk about this

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/07/2018 07:31

The police warnings across a number of threads, coming from several posters, were an extraordinary coincidence.

Weren’t they just?

There are other areas on the net where people congregate and keep an eye on MN. On an entirely unrelated board (to do with antenatal stuff) there seems to be an alert set up for a certain keyword being used in a thread. Once it’s used, the thread is magically joined by four or five people all pressing the same view in similar language.

Similar has happened on a fb mums group I’m on. There’s one topic where the admins actually had to ban talking about it because as soon as it was mentioned a tag team of people with rather extreme religious beliefs always popped up. They then swamped the thread with ‘x is dangerous.’

So the other week we had goady gynae cancer and infertility, then now we’ve had veiled ‘concerned warnings’ and rumblings about the police.

As sweary’s legal advice said - holding a gender critical view is protected under law. If your employer takes action against you for expressing gender critical views they are breaking the law.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO BE A FUCKING FEMINIST.

Do not be afraid of filling out this consultation.

I wonder what this week’s threat/goading theme will be? Sweepstake anyone?

AngryAttackKittens · 02/07/2018 02:49

I wonder if Snappity insists on continuing to talk to people who ask to be left alone in real life too.

thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 01:42

"de·bate
dəˈbāt/
noun
noun: debate; plural noun: debates

1.
a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.
synonyms:	discussion, discourse, parley, dialogue; More
argument, counterargument, dispute, wrangle, war of words;
argumentation, disputation, dissension, disagreement, contention, conflict;
negotiations, talks;
informalconfab, powwow
"a debate on the reforms"
    an argument about a particular subject, especially one in which many people are involved.
    "the national debate on abortion"

verb
verb: debate; 3rd person present: debates; past tense: debated; past participle: debated; gerund or present participle: debating

1.
argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.
"the board debated his proposal"
synonyms:	discuss, talk over/through, talk about, thrash out, hash out, argue, dispute; More
informalkick around, bat around
"they will debate the future of rail transport"
    consider a possible course of action in one's mind before reaching a decision.
    "he debated whether he should leave the matter alone or speak to her"
    synonyms:	consider, think over/about, chew over, mull over, ponder, revolve, deliberate, contemplate, muse, meditate"

Your participation here in Feminism and Women's Rights is a lot of things but debate is not one of them.

Snappity · 02/07/2018 01:30

This is deliberately inflammatory behavior on the part of a person who refuses to take no for an answer and has been reported as such.

What you mean is that you dislike people have a different opinion. Sorry. That is debate.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 02/07/2018 01:29

Sorry, by self indulgent crap I am referring to the pretence that identifying as a woman actually changes your sex and that therefore everything we've ever known about safeguarding should be tossed in the corner.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 02/07/2018 01:26

You just have to look at all those hundreds of comments under the trans stories in The Times, AAK, or the reaction to #ManFriday. People don't want males in women's showers, prisons or psychiatric wards. All this wafting around getting influence doesn't amount to convincing ordinary people to swallow this self indulgent crap.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 02/07/2018 01:22

Just remember that you will need to respond to the consultation in your real life name which, on the basis of past consultations, is generally published.

Get stuffed, Snappity with your threatening music. I'm perfectly relaxed about giving my views under my real name. Why would I - or any other woman here - be concerned?

AngryAttackKittens · 02/07/2018 01:04

Their cause rather than their guess. I think they've already guessed how things will go if the public is able to give its input...