Five journalist shot dead

Find it yourself. Clearly you know how to use a keyboard

Debating on the Internet 101:

If someone makes a statement and another person refutes the statement, the onus to prove the original statement is true is on the person making the original statement, not the inquisitor

@A4710Rider and @angryattackkittens here's a little bit about what has happened in Amsterdam in the past week. There isn't much in-depth reporting in English unfortunately, but this is a good start: apnews.com/d4b59725afb846aab202720bd2c3664c

For background:

The Panorama weekly is a magazine that is, frankly, a bit of a rag but that obviously doesn't mean it's ok to shoot the place up. (I'm just trying to give some context about what sort of publication it is; I don't know a UK equivalent.) It has news articles but it mostly covers true crime stories.

De Telegraaf is a national newspaper which is hardly highbrow but it's not in Daily Mail territory either. It's sold everywhere: newsagents, supermarkets etc, cafes often have copies for you to read. Everyone knows it.

The organised crime situation in Amsterdam (and in other places in the Netherlands) is pretty complicated and I certainly couldn't do it justice here (even if I knew all the details).

But some examples of what sort of things have been happening include: gunmen coming into a community centre on a Friday night, a place where kids were doing a cooking class and there were kickboxing lessons going on, shooting indiscriminately and killing a 17yo who later turned out to have absolutely no connection to the guy they were after. nltimes.nl/2018/01/29/teenager-killed-two-hurt-amsterdam-shooting-mayor-called-something

Gruesome murders which are very public: www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/09/severed-head-amsterdam-cafe-drugs-gang-war-netherlands

The brother of a crown witness in a gang-related case being murdered in cold blood: nltimes.nl/2018/03/29/key-witness-brother-assassinated-amsterdam - this man had no connection to the gang world at all, he simply had the misfortune to have a brother who was mixed up in it. Obviously it was a clear warning to other gang members that they might be putting their extended families at risk if they changed sides and turned crown witnesses.

Anyway these examples (two of them from 2018!) are just to give a brief picture of how there's plenty of crime going on here for reporters to delve into and try to inform the public about. And clearly there are people who are very much against that reporting.

Sorry for the derail and massive post!

Show me some right wing bias then.

Find it yourself. Clearly you know how to use a keyboard?

Apparently, the left are now to blame for the right's actions

There are left wing journalists in America calling for "domestic terror attacks"

This is just the beginning

splinternews.com/this-is-just-the-beginning-1827099100

How did you feel about the Charlie Hebdo massacre? Honestly?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "it was a bad thing".

Journalists represent the idea of truth in a democratic and open society. When people start to be killed or persecuted for their words, writings etc you’re in deep trouble because it indicates that society is not respectful of speech or that some ideas are seen as ‘needing’ silencing

How did you feel about the Charlie Hebdo massacre? Honestly?

We got as far as page two before a MRA turned up to tell us that these murders are the fault of the left. Whatever the left's "part" has been in the culture wars, it hasn't been baying for the blood of journalists. That would be the right's part.

First rule of misogyny: women are to blame for men's actions. Apparently, the left are now to blame for the right's actions.

This statement gets thrown around a lot but it is utter nonsense. Please turn to any Murdoch-owned media outlet for evidence

I hear that a lot too.

Show me some right wing bias then.

Also, absolutely agree with whoever upthread^^ said journalists are the canaries in the coal mine. Exactly!

Astonishing that other posters can’t/won’t see this.

It is deeply troubling.

Journalists represent the idea of truth in a democratic and open society. When people start to be killed or persecuted for their words, writings etc you’re in deep trouble because it indicates that society is not respectful of speech or that some ideas are seen as ‘needing’ silencing.

It has been so since time immemorial: see Galileo vs Pope (Urban the 8th?) - power of the church vs science.

We’ve had atheist bloggers killed in Bangladesh and the awful attack on Charlie Hebdo, showing that religious freedom of expression is curtailed.

Now this chap - and while full facts yet to be established it seems to be along the violent misogyny lines - DV, his exposure for DV and his rage at not being allowed to be a misogynist unfettered.

So it’s worrying because it shows an aspect of society that’s prevalent - hatred of women.

Journalists have a dangerous job, and they’re a vital part of a free society. My sincere sympathies to the families.

The problem these days is that at lot, if not all, of journalists have a left wing bias and probably a left wing agenda.

This statement gets thrown around a lot but it is utter nonsense. Please turn to any Murdoch-owned media outlet for evidence.

I agree with the OP. I used to be a journalist and colleagues would sometimes talk about countries unsafe for us to visit... At that time, Russia had a spate of murders targeting journalists. I am saddened that the US could be added to the list. I would love it if this was not the case, but it would be naive to think that Trump’s anti-media rants are not influencing at least some of the population.

Thanks for this thread Red. Your analysis is really interesting.

Please don't be silenced (not that you would be).

Milo Yiannopoulos just 2 days ago: “I can’t wait for the vigilante squads to start gunning journalists down on sight”
Mass murder implies the victims were not deliberately chosen. That's not the case here.

RedToothBrush is absolutely correct in the way she has presented this.
The biggest respect you can give a journalist is to tell the story that their murderer tried to silence.

Was it to do with reporting on the situation with the sex industry there, Cheese?

The Cheese

I'd be really interested to read about the two separate attacks please.

Journalism and the telling of truth is the bedrock of freedom and justice.

This.

In Amsterdam this past week there have been two separate attacks on print media outlets. Fortunately nobody injured. The minister-president has publicly denounced the attacks as a blow against democracy and freedom of speech.

(The attacks are thought to be related to organised crime so I won’t post further details here unless anyone is specifically interested, but it’s certainly relevant as part of a wider attack on journalism that we are seeing in the West at the moment in supposedly ‘civilised’ countries.)

If you think I'm gonna back down on this, and go 'oh yes I'm sorry I was disrespectful to those journalists' then you are really going to be in for a bloody bit disappointment.

Oh no I certainly didn't expect that so your reaction doesn't disappoint me in the least. After all it was more important to you to serach for and post that screenshot than to give even a passing thought to who "those journalists" ,as you put it, actually were.

The problem these days is that at lot, if not all, of journalists have a left wing bias and probably a left wing agenda.

Mainstream media is laughable nonsense as a result.

and the culture war for liberty and democracy in America right now

The left's actions in the "Culture War" in the USA are despicable, hopefully it will come back to them in spades.

Maybe it would help for people to have a think about why any given person or group would want to encourage a scornful attitude towards journalists, and the idea that they "get what they deserve". "Who does this benefit?" is often an illuminating question.

see above comment about respect for journalists

Which respect however didn't extend to the 2 or 3 seconds it would have taken to recognise these victims as 5 individual people.