Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

Hilary you didn't explain what you mean by gender - male/female is sex

My View on gender and sexuality and conversion therapy

SEX and GENDER
The terms sex and gender are used by people interchangeably to mean male or female.

I am using the term SEX as biological sex as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics.

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

For the majority of people their gender identity will be the same as their biologically determined sex. Through the socialization process, children are taught what is expected, and accepted, of them as a boy or girl virtually from birth.

By the age of three to four most children display behaviors and select activities typical of their sex, but that is not always the case. Children are also aware by age three or four of what gender they identify with.

For those that fit in with society’s expectations for their biological sex the meaning of gender probably will never be questioned. After all, they fit the mold. Those who are identified as gender non-conforming will display cross gender preferences atypical of society expectations for their assigned gender.

Gender non-conforming children may or may not develop a gender identity different to their assigned sex. This does not mean they will be diagnosed with the condition gender incongruence (Gender Dysphoria). They may be masculine girls or feminine boys or develop a homosexual identity

Only those children who are insistently and persistently stating they are not a boy or girl knowing this is their sex, who go on to develop a gender identity different to their assigned sex which continues over a period of several months or years into puberty tanner stage 2 will be diagnosed with the condition gender incongruence.

Even though gender diversity has been documented across cultures and recorded throughout history it is still not easy for those who do not fit in with what society deems as ‘normal’. Individuals who identify with a gender different from their own sex can decide to change their gender expression to match the gender they identify with, either superficially with hair styles, behaviours, and clothing choices, or more permanently with hormone therapy or surgery.

For those teens that question their sexual orientation, Sexual Identity or Gender Identity it could lead to coming out to family and friends which in turn could result in acceptance, celebration, or rejection, feelings of isolation, and depression

According to researchers, sexual orientation, and sexual identity is influenced by biological, genetic, or hormonal factors during critical stages of development. From a social and cultural context how an individual expresses his or her sexual orientation or gender identity is associated with the type of environment he or she was raised in, which would not only take into account social and cultural features but also religious and political elements as well.

Psychiatrist and psychologists informed through research found that those who wished to alter a person’s sexual identity, sexuality or gender identity, using psychological techniques failed. This is because the core identity of an individual cannot be altered.

The psychiatrist and psychologists agreed that homosexuality was a natural part of an individual’s development and that conversion therapy should be banned

Psychiatrist and psychologists also agreed that sexual identity and gender identity were a natural part of an individual’s development and that conversion therapy should be banned.

Research has found that the most successful treatment to improve outcomes for those diagnosed with gender incongruence (Gender Dysphoria) was for them to be accepted by society as the sex appropriate for their gender identity.

I agree with those who wish to legislate to ban conversion therapy for homosexuality and gender identity.

Lots of questions here asking my opinion on many different things. I will break down my responses but first I would like to say that I have only stated the position of the professional experts who are working to the agreed care pathway for those diagnosed with Gender Incongruence (Gender Dysphoria) as stated on this thread in my previous posts.

We are discussing here about banning conversion therapy with regard to sexuality and gender identity.

From the comments on this thread it appears the majority would agree that banning conversion therapy to change a person's sexuality is agreed. The consensus being that an individuals sexuality cannot be change by psychological intervention. But, it is also apparent from the comments that several participants disagree with banning conversion therapy for people with a gender identity different from their sex as assigned at birth.

To elaborate my view I need to clarify some terms so you can understand my reasoning

Sexual Identity
Sexual Identity involves the level of comfort with, or range of acceptance of, an individual’s biological sex at birth. It is developed during puberty and becomes more apparent as teenagers start to feel sexual attraction. Curiosity about sex is a normal part of human development.

Sexual Orientation
Whereas sexual identity refers to an individual’s comfort level with his or her own biological sex, sexual orientation focuses on the biological sex of the person who an individual is sexually attracted to. There are three options (within the gender binary) that fall under the classification of sexual orientation. They are heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual. Heterosexuals are attracted to people of the opposite biological sex, homosexuals are attracted to those of the same biological sex, and bisexuals report being equally attracted to both. If we include attraction out of the binary their are further definitions of attraction including, Pansexual attracted to all gender identities, Skoliosexual attracted to Transgender / Gender Identities outside the Binary, Asexual no sexual attraction, and Romantic Attraction attracted to individuals

Gender Identity
Gender identity is “the degree of acceptance or discomfort which a person manifests in terms of behavioral and emotional characteristics expected for a person, according to biological sex, to show within the interaction with other people”.

Conversion Therapy
Conversion therapy is an umbrella term for a therapeutic approach, or any model or individual viewpoint that demonstrates an assumption that any sexual orientation or gender identity is inherently preferable to any other, and which attempts to bring about a change of sexual orientation or gender identity, or seeks to suppress an individual’s expression of sexual orientation or gender identity on that basis.

The Montgomery ruling on informed consent is interesting.
'The judgment therefore means that doctors must share all such material risks, as well as any to which it would be reasonable for them to think the individual patient would attach significance'
A doctor has a duty not just to place a young person on a pathway but to ensure they understand all the ramifications of that and the alternatives available. Consent must be informed and given the experimental nature of prescribing puberty blockers I expect legal cases in the future.

Gender is just all the societal crap society hangs on each sex as an expectation.

We are supposed to be breaking it down, not solidifying and codifying it.

Hilary: do you believe humans can change sex?

The question should be do young people understand their own sense of their gender identity?

What is gender identity and why do you think it is so important when it has no material reality? Sex is real. Gender isn't.

HilaryMGSDC

Do you think those children all understand that they can't change sex? Do you think they understand that they can only ever outwardly resemble the opposite sex, but will still remain the sex they were born?

These young people are being sold a lie. They are being told that they can change sex. You will always be the sex you were born. All these people who are lying to children about this need to stop. This is child abuse.

The article gives a voice to young trans people and it is non judgmental.

How judgemental or not the article is is irrelevant to medical ethics.

How young people ‘feel’ about it is not the driver of medical ethics.

It’s is grossly unethical to place a healthy child on puberty blockers. These drugs are harmful. Their effects are not reversible.

Children are being lied to:
they cannot change sex
Puberty blockers are not a harmful pause button.
They are not ‘born in the wrong body.’

They need supportive therapy to come to terms with the perfectly normal body they have and the perfect normal gender presentation they have and to understand that the societal narrative around gender is toxic. These kids are not broken, society is. They are fine as they are. To medicate and then subject them to surgery when there’s nothing wrong with them is grossly unethical.

thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299393-Trans-Children-in-their-own-words

Yeah, we're already discussing that on another thread. It's not the big fluffy gotcha you think it is. In fact, it's a frighteningly telling exposure of the lies these kids have been fed, in one case by a homophobic mother.

Listen to the voices of young people who identify as trans or non-binary.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5926807/Are-children-young-11-really-capable-making-life-changing-decisions-gender.html

I think the question posed by the headline is the wrong questions. The question should be do young people understand their own sense of their gender identity?

If you talk to young trans people I thing you will conclude they do. The article gives a voice to young trans people and it is non judgmental.

Another view

Australia Presents a Gold Standard of Care for Trans and Gender Diverse Children
OCTOBER 1, 2017 / GROWINGUPTRANSGENDER

growinguptransgender.com/2017/10/01/australian-gold-standard-of-care-for-trans-children/

This week Australia’s Royal Children’s Hospital Gender Service has launched the “Australian Standards of Care and Treatment Guidelines for Trans and Gender Diverse Children and Adolescents”. These guidelines are compiled by the leading Australian experts, based on the best and most current evidence from around the world. These guidelines are endorsed by ANZPATH (the Australian and New Zealand Professional Association for Transgender Health) and were launched at the recent ANZPATH conference. They are now the official guidelines for all health professionals working with transgender children in Australia.

The standard is clearly written and concise and it is definitely worth reading in full. Here, for convenience, please find below a brief synopsis of selected key extracts from the document. In Part 2 we will look at Why this standard matters, and why it should be adopted in the UK NHS.

Australian Standards of Care and Treatment Guidelines for Trans and Gender Diverse Children and Adolescents (pdf)

the Swedish ethics/medical board has just been challenged on this. They recommended that no such affirmative procedures are done on anyone under 18, due to irreversible nature of procedures

www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/dd2epw/statens-medicinsk-etiska-rad-inga-konskorrigerande-ingrepp-for-ungdo

A departmental memo was submitted requesting that children as young as 15 be treated, however the ethics board felt that this was not ethical (my translation apologies for any errors) - “"We are united in the Council most of the time but this was a matter where we didnt agree. In general, we have been restrained in surgical procedures that provide permanent changes. We are not against legal gender substitution, but we are against surgical procedures and drug treatment under 18 years”

/\ This

Historically the care pathway for those with Gender Incongruence could have been likened to conversion therapy

That is a very dangerous, political statement. How can trying to change someone's sexual orientation be anything like treating someone with a disorder? The first is a natural orientation, the second is mental incongruence and disorder which requires intervention when it is acute.

Gender itself and it's social enforcement is the lifelong 'conversion therapy' into rigid sex stereotypes. 'Affirming' a person''s sexist belief they need to switch sex stereotypes is also gender conversion therapy.

Encouraging self acceptance grounded in reality is the opposite of 'conversion'.

They are based on the evidence that led the professional experts working in this field to design a care pathway the prevents harm.

What about the co-morbidity with NPD? Lots of professionals either avoid PD people completely or just give them what they want to avoid litigation.

HilaryMGSDC

Thankfully through pioneering research and the knowledge learned, new treatments affirming a patients gender identity were found to relieve the feelings of gender incongruence which has led to the development of the current care pathway.

My understanding is that people who suffer from gender dysphoria believe that their body is "wrong" in terms of their sex characteristics. Are you suggesting that affirming that a patient is actually "born in the wrong body" is the most appropriate treatment?

Is this affirmation approach also used in other disorders in which a person believes that a part of their body is "wrong" or doesn't belong to them?

fractalplimsoll

Where do you stand on considering other MH conditions that may present with gender dysphoria/ gender incongruence?

I have no personal stand or view on other MH conditions as diagnosis of MH conditions is the preserve of MH specialists who work in diagnosing MH conditions.

My posts in this thread are stating the professional expert advice for the treatment of gender incongruence (gender dysphoria) WPATH / GIDS, as apposed to some form of harmful conversion therapy.

My personal experience is based on work with individuals who work in the field of support services for people with gender incongruence (gender dysphoria) or those questioning their gender identity. Psychologists, Counsellors, GP's Other Specialists who follow the accepted care pathway agreed by professional experts after reviewing all other treatment paths to prevent harm.

My posts on this thread are not based on my personal view. They are based on the evidence that led the professional experts working in this field to design a care pathway the prevents harm.

Historically the care pathway for those with Gender Incongruence could have been likened to conversion therapy. Like the treatment of homosexuality it consisted of psychotherapy to make the individuals feel bad about themselves for being trans. It included psychoactive drugs and electroshock treatment. Individuals could end up in asylums for being trans. The results of this treatment were harmful to the patients.

Thankfully through pioneering research and the knowledge learned, new treatments affirming a patients gender identity were found to relieve the feelings of gender incongruence which has led to the development of the current care pathway.

The medical ethics around some of what's suggested around transing children are a steaming pile of dingo's doings. Some of the clinicians must be completely off their meds. Trolleys too.

Its about preventing harm

I’m not convinced that the risk: benefit calaculation is correct. The harm done by puberty blockers is significant.

The suicide stats for example - these have (in my opinion) been inflated precisely for this reason. The only way you can justify the harm done by blockers and surgery is if the alternative is death.

I have grave reservations about affirmative treatment, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgical treatment for young people. I do not personally believe this is in the young persons best interests. I also don’t believe that parents (who I have no doubt are trying to do the best for their kids and are navigating unknown waters) are being given the correct information to make informed choices.

HilaryMGSDC

Where do you stand on considering other MH conditions that may present with gender dysphoria/ gender incongruence?

I do understand the harm reduction treatment model.

R0wantrees

The recognised care pathway for treatment advises that GPs and other specialists with knowledge of the treatment protocols for gender reassignment should be aloud to prescribe bridging treatment to those who self medicate to prevent harm, whilst they wait for treatment from a gender clinic. Its about preventing harm