Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

Bowlofbabelfish Prawnofthepatriarchy Pratchet or

Mimmymam

Sex is binary
There is no third sex
There is no opinion on sex, by the way. It’s factual.
I imagine I won’t get an answer to my question. It’s funny but I never do - nobody will stand up and say they believe humans can change sex

Can humans change Sex?

I have already given an answer to this question in an earlier post.

I’m wondering now if you are reading my posts and digesting my position on the reasoning behind my support for a ban on conversion therapy for both sexuality and gender identity.

There seems to be a lot of interest in my view on whether humans can change sex? Although I do not believe this is relevant to the question: should gender identity be included in a ban on conversion therapy?

So, let me dispel your worries about not getting an answer to what seems to be an important question to many on this thread.

To avoid confusion as some people, use sex and gender interchangeably to mean male and female, lets lay out what the terms used mean in my posts. I will also give some other information that will inform the reasoning for my answer.

I know I stated this earlier, but some may not have read the earlier posts (I think they should though as they lay out my position on conversion therapy).

I am using the term SEX as biological sex as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics.

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

Sex is complex, and it most definitely is not binary!

*Do I believe you can alter your bodies genetic, chromosomal sex?

No, But I do believe that none of us are 100% male or female. We all have the duality of developing gonads and primary sexual characteristics of either sex, that we could developed secondary sex characteristics as male or female.

In the previous post I raised the issue of Intersex as an example that Sex development is complex. We assign babies Male or Female dependent on their primary sex characteristics but with intersex babies this is not always clear or correctly assigned. I raised the issue of intersex not to conflate intersex people with transgender people but to demonstrate that sex is complex and not binary.

Prof. Alex Shepard Glasgow University ‘Doctors usually assign 1 of 3 sexes at birth: Male, Female or Intersex. There are in fact 6 variations of biological sex dependent on number and type of gonads present’.

I do agree that most people are assigned male or female, but as you see from the statement above sex is defined by primary sex characteristics and 6 variations is more than 2. Therefore, sex is more than binary.

Ok, lets take this complexity further. Our primary and secondary sexual characteristics are dependent on our sex chromosomes and hormonal influences. Other chromosomes affect our physical development. It is possible that humans can develop physically to be more masculine or feminine.

As I stated previously we know very little about brain development or variations in brain development, but it is probable that differences will exist between individuals. Some people believe that hormonal influences can determine how the brain develops, which in turn leads to how an individual’s core identity develops. But I see from your previous posts that some of you do not believe in brain sex. The jury is still out but research is ongoing so eventually compelling evidence may be found one way or the other.

So, lets look at the proposition that brains are not sexed.

If the brain is not sexed everyone has a brain capable of being in a male or female or intersex body as they all function the same

Your posts agree that sexual orientation ‘attraction’ is not a choice so it must be caused by some unconscious influence on brain development.

The brain may still be influenced by hormonal levels, both androgen and oestrogen which could influence how the brain reacts to environmental changes (intersections of identity).

Taking account of the above to answer your question I believe all the following inclusively:

Humans cannot change sex (see clarification above) but they can change some of their secondary sex characteristics, they cannot change their unconscious core identity: sexuality, gender identity, they are not 100% male or female but a combination of both sexes which develop dependent on chromosomal and hormonal influences.

Transsexuals who transition to live as the opposite binary sex to that assigned at birth do not change sex they ‘are the sex’ that matches their gender identity, the causes of this are still unknown or unproven but some research into brain function is pointing to a similarity in transsexual brains that align with brain functions of those with a matching gender identity, similarly the causes of sexual attraction are unknown.

If you believe that humans have a none sexed brain you must accept that male, female intersex and transsexual people have similar brains that can be affected by chromosomal and hormonal influences and have unconscious influence on our core identity. These influences could affect sexual orientation, and gender identity

Transsexual people are not delusional they recognise their bodies have developed differently to their core gender identity, they act using hormones and surgery to change their body to match their gender identity.

Are you aware of Bowl's proffessional experience & qualifications?
No I am not aware of who they are as the pseudonym used does not identify them to me. But the question is, would it make a difference to my statements on this thread?

I don't know if you're new to the FWR board? BowlofBabelfish is a regular poster, she has been posting for quite a while.

''and in answer to your question, yes it probably would.

R0wantrees
Are you aware of Bowl's proffessional experience & qualifications?
No I am not aware of who they are as the pseudonym used does not identify them to me. But the question is, would it make a difference to my statements on this thread?

GirlDownUnder
Through the socialization process, children are taught what is expected, and accepted, of them as a boy or girl virtually from birth.
Are you stating that boys are / should be taught that only ‘manly’ things are expected and accepted for them ie blue toys, dumper trucks, and no crying?
And for girls only pink toys, dolls, and being soft?

No I am not saying that, In an answer to OldCrone I am stateing the conclusion of people working with child gender development is that children are aware of the gender they identify with by the age of 3 to 4 years old.

OldCrone
I don't think this paper reinforces the view that children should be taught that they can change sex. Another extract from the paper you linked to earlier,

I never said that the paper said anything about it advising children should be taught they can change sex. I used the paper to answer your question in a previous post - What is your evidence for this?

Reading it, it's quite clear that whenever they mention 'gender' they actually mean 'sex', most (or possibly all) of the time

I see you now agree with me that people use sex and gender interchangeably to mean male or female.

GardenGeek
Its the perfect example of double think and believing everything and nothing simultaneously. Incredible achievement

Yes! Sex, Gender & Gender Identity is complex! Gender Identity can be fixed or fluid. This is not double think, it’s based on factual evidence. Hence Intersex people, Trans People and those who identify as Genderfluid exist.

Prawnofthepatriarchy
Your comments illustrate the problems with the ideology quite clearly. The intersex waffle is a transparent attempt to muddy the waters

Which ideology? I am talking about banning conversion therapy for sexuality and gender identity, and have enhanced my statements with facts that support my reasoning.

HilaryMGSDC

Another extract from the paper you linked to earlier, which is quite interesting regarding how children develop and learn about the differences between the sexes in terms of societal expectations and how this affects their behaviour.

Reading it, it's quite clear that whenever they mention 'gender' they actually mean 'sex', most (or possibly all) of the time.

Children’s attempts to understand the implications of different essences are particularly important for social categories because individuals can belong to the categories and identify with them, and thus they have implications for ingroup and outgroup attitudes and behaviors... For example, if children think that wearing pink, frilly dresses result from‘‘girlness,’’ boys should avoid them and girls should love them. Once children learn that such features are not fundamental to being a boy or a girl (i.e., the gender consistency stage), however, adherence to these more superficial aspects of the category can be relinquished. Bem (1989) made this argument for why it makes sense to teach young children that genitals, not appearance or activities, are the critical distinctions between males and females.

What they are saying here is that once children understand that their sex is fixed, (that is, they won't change sex if they play with the 'wrong' toys, for example), they actually feel more comfortable with stepping outside the gendered expectations. Also that children should be taught that the defining feature between the sexes is their genitals.

I don't think this paper reinforces the view that children should be taught that they can change sex.

Yy. I used to wonder what it would be like to live in a dystopia, where everyone around you believed a lie, and only a few people knew the truth. It's very distressing to find out.

Pratchet

And they try to dress it up as science. What rot
Like the 'new improved' ads. Gender no longer the old limiting sexist stereotypes but new and improved to let you express your totally authentic self.

This idea that there is no truth, only opinions, is a deeply toxic one. It’s probably got its origins in our current cultural state, with 24 hours news, the internet, rampant individualism and lack of critical thought.

I think it's called postmodernism.
Postmodernism is difficult to define, because to define it would violate the postmodernist's premise that no definite terms, boundaries, or absolute truths exist.

The pomo-addled think they can change reality by the liberal use of word salad.

Hello it's Pratchet. I've changed my name.

Thanks for the links, Hilary. I've downloaded the paper you linked to and just started to read it. In the first paragraph it says

Slaby and Frey (1975) demonstrated that children move through a series of stages: first learning to identify their own and others’ sex (basic gender identity or labeling)

So they seem to be using the terms 'sex' and 'gender' interchangeably, and it appears that they are simply saying that children recognise their own sex at this age, as I speculated in my last post.

I'll read the rest of it now and come back if there is anything else relevant in it.

^You are aware that the intersex community have repeatedly asked that proponents of trans ideology leave them out of their claims? It's not considered good form to drag them in*

twitter.com/mrkhtake2 comments:

(extracts)
"We need to talk about what’s happening to the intersex community. I mean, seriously. I know I talk about it all the time but it’s critical, so here’s a quick thread with a potted background and a few articles raising intersex voices."

"Gender radical trans organisations can’t represent intersex people as their beliefs are interphobic. I witness this all the time. The gender radical view that chromosomes have nothing to do with sex and my inability to conform means I am called a man a lot by trans activists.
In other words, I must be “fixed” or comply. If you want to begin to understand the damage that does, this article contains the perspective of women with MRKH and the experts that work with them." (continues)

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1013106135002476544.html

I imagine I won’t get an answer to my question. It’s funny but I never do - nobody will stand up and say they believe humans can change sex.

But this entire issue hinges on that question. Because children are being given affirmative treatment on that premise. Women’s rights are being stripped on that premise. Child safeguarding is being damaged by that premise.

We are all expected to act and believe as if it is true. But nobody will ever say they believe it.

I find that quite staggering. Nobody has the courage of their conviction to say that they believe it. But they advocate massively damaging policies be codified in law on the premise it’s true.

Mind. Boggling. Duplicity.

There is no opinion on sex, by the way. It’s factual.

For something to be a matter of opinion it needs to have a degree of subjectivity. Ethics for example, you can argue - is there an absolute moral truth? Well there’s a societal consensus but it’s not measurable or objective.

Sex is objective. It’s observable, measurable, a physical state of being. It is not a matter of opinion.

This idea that there is no truth, only opinions, is a deeply toxic one. It’s probably got its origins in our current cultural state, with 24 hours news, the internet, rampant individualism and lack of critical thought.

Sex is not a matter of opinion. Biology doesn’t care about our opinions, any more than gravity does. It just IS.

So: can humans change sex?

You have your view and I have mine, I will let the readers make their own decision.

You do that, Hilary. Your comments illustrate the problems with the ideology quite clearly. The intersex waffle is a transparent attempt to muddy the waters.

You are aware that the intersex community have repeatedly asked that proponents of trans ideology leave them out of their claims? It's not considered good form to drag them in.

Sex is a binary. There is no third sex. And you are by no means the only scientist on this thread. People who underestimate Bowl soon find themselves struggling.

Sex is binary.

I’m well aware of the various interested/DSD conditions- everyone in every category you’ve written there is either Male or female.

Intersex people are not some sort of middle ground - they are either Male or female.

What I mean by sex is very, very simple. I mean Male or female.

can humans change sex?

It’s a yes or no answer.

I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding Hilary

You said Through the socialization process, children are taught what is expected, and accepted, of them as a boy or girl virtually from birth

To me, this sounds like the issue. Why are we still teaching children what behaviours are acceptable for boys or girls?

Are you stating that boys are / should be taught that only ‘manly’ things are expected and accepted for them ie blue toys, dumper trucks, and no crying?
And for girls only pink toys, dolls, and being soft?

Are we really still at the stage of sugar and spice and all things nice are what little girls are made of?

OldCrone
There are a few problems with the definitions and descriptions you have used

I see no problem with the descriptions I stated in my post. The post was intended to set the basis for the reasoning behind my response to earlier questions posed.
Sexual Identity
Gender Identity
Children are also aware by age three or four of what gender they identify with

I have stated my view on conversion therapy.

You have your view and I have mine, I will let the readers make their own decision.

Hilary
There are a few problems with the definitions and descriptions you have used.

Sexual Identity
Sexual Identity involves the level of comfort with, or range of acceptance of, an individual’s biological sex at birth.
Since humans cannot change sex, would I be right to assume that if an individual was suffering great discomfort with their sex, that therapy would be aimed at enabling that person to live comfortably with their body?

Gender Identity
Gender identity is “the degree of acceptance or discomfort which a person manifests in terms of behavioral and emotional characteristics expected for a person, according to biological sex, to show within the interaction with other people”.
In the 21st century, I'm not sure why this is even an issue. What interactions with others depend on your sex? Obviously sexual relationships, but since both heterosexual and homosexual relationships are acceptable, I really don't understand what you're getting at here.

Children are also aware by age three or four of what gender they identify with.
Really? What is your evidence for this? Many of us never identify with a gender. I certainly don't. And children of three or four are just starting to learn about the world - I can't imagine anyone of that age having contemplated the issue enough to identify with a gender. But since you define gender using sex categories, do you just mean that children know what sex they are by three or four?

HilaryMGSDC

Are you aware of Bowl's proffessional experience & qualifications?

NewbieSpartacus

Hilary you didn't explain what you mean by gender - male/female is sex

You have not read my post fully

Bowlofbabelfish
do you believe humans can change sex?

How do you define
SEX

Sex is complex, and it most definitely is not binary!

• How many different types of Human Chromosome Sex are there?

• Female / Intersex XX & Male / Intersex XY

• Female / Intersex XO, XXX, XXXX, XXXXX,

• Male / Intersex XXY, XXXY, XYY

• Intersex conditions
• Not XX and Not XY 1 in 1,666 births
• Klinefelter (XXY) 1 in 1,000 births
• Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome 1 in 13,000 births
• Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome 1 in 130,000 births
• Classical Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia 1 in 13,000 births
• Late Onset Adrenal Hyperplasia 1 in 66 individuals
• Vaginal Agenesis 1 in 6,000 births
• Ovotestes 1 in 6,000 births
• Idiopathic (no discernible medical cause) 1 in 110,000 births
• Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment) no estimate
• 5 Alpha Reductase Deficiency no estimate
• Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis no estimate
• Complete Gonadal Dysgenesis 1 in 150,000 births
• Hypospadias (in perineum or penile shaft) 1 in 2,000 births
• Hypospadias (between corona and tip of penis) 1 in 770 births
• Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female 1 in 100 births
• Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance 1 or 2 in 1,000 births

www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Do I believe you can alter your bodies genetic, chromosomal sex?
No, But I do believe that none of us are 100% male or female. We all have the duality of developing gonads and primary sexual characteristics of either sex, that we could developed secondary sex characteristics as male or female.

Human sexual development of primary and secondary sex characteristics is dependent on the interaction of hormonal influences whilst we are in the fetal stages and at puberty. These developments are not binary as proven by intersex conditions.

We know very little about the development of the human brain or how it influences our internal feelings of self, our core identities. We only know how we as individuals feel about our sex and gender identity, so we cannot really know how others feel about theirs.

I am more willing to accept others for who they are, by the actions they take and the way they relate to others that by their chromosomal sex.

We are all unique and that is what makes this world beautiful.