Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

This is the ideological position.

Actually, come to think of it, doctors are scientists, and plenty of them have MDs and PhDs. It's a disgrace. How do you square that Bowl with what you said?

absolutely no one I know in the scientific or medical sides of my life has any truck with the notion that a woman is anything other than an adult human female.

Are there 2 factions in medical sciences? I just don't understand how doctors give the kids the hormones.

I might start writing to them. How about Davis Attenborough?

We need an actual scientist to come out as it were.

Prawn, they are not going to believe an anonymous poster on MN though are they, above their doctor. What we need is someone like Prof Winston to do a TV programme or something

Surely Bowl, if transwomen have a birth cert changed etc, there are going to be FtM/MtF appearing in drugs trials soon unbeknowsnt to researchers?

Bowl, I know it's a pain but it would be so valuable if you reposted your important unemotional statement every time a fearful parent turns up on Mumsnet at their wits end about a child or teen who's expressing gender confusion and demanding medical transition.

Most parents are desperate to do the right thing, but Mermaids are where the media encourages them to turn. People with your sort of expertise provide an authoritative alternative. If parents know for sure how incredibly dangerous and unethical medical transition is for anybody who's not fully adult, then they'll face hell and high water rather than get their DC puberty blockers

Frankley I think we scientists need to take a stand.

Is the House of Lords / Commons devoid of ex-scientists ? Did they all have an arts background? They gave up biology as they couldn't do the scientific stuff? It shows...

Yes and no. On the direct academic side, no. I think people in the academic environment are terrified of repercussions.
I know my immediate boss is an old school feminist because Ive seen her in action. the company I’m at just now seems to not show any woke or anti science stances at all - a massive part of what we do relies on accurate data collection and reporting - there’s no space or scope for fucking around with definitions of sex, it’d be a danger to people’s health. kidney function measurements need accurate sex data for example - it can be life or death.

A couple of colleagues are very gender critical, but the physical office I work based from is very small and I mainly wfh. These are conversations I think I’d need to be on ‘daily tea round’ face to face level with people.

People in my field who I know really well but now work elsewhere? Yes. The women are all extremely concerned. The men (with a few notable exceptions) are mainly unaware.

Waffly answer, sorry. I send cautious feelers out all the time, feeling like I’m giving some sort of secret feminist handshake or something. That makes me really angry - discussing women’s rights shouldn’t be something anyone needs to hide.

Anyway, absolutely no one I know in the scientific or medical sides of my life has any truck with the notion that a woman is anything other than an adult human female.

Bowl do you chat with colleagues about this stuff?

My area of expertise is human developmental genetics (and allied fields.)

Humans cannot change sex. To tell a child they can change sex is incorrect. To give a healthy child drugs that are off label, unmonitored and actively contraindicated in anyone with mental health issues is irresponsible, unethical and abhorrent. Parents and patients are not being given impartial full information on these drugs. Children are being sterilised and undergoing risky and painful surgery.

I’m employed in a field that has a LOT to do with medical ethics, drug development, directly working with patients, patient facing materials, clinical trial design, paediatric trial populations etc.

Affirmative treatment, blockers and surgery are GROSSLY unethical.

If I exposed patients and their families to the kind of biased information and clinical risk that dosing with blockers does, never mind sterilising children, not only would I be fired, I’d be facing criminal charges with serious time attached.

I cannot believe this is happening. I condemn it in the strongest possible terms. This is going to be a huge scandal.

@HilaryMGSDC
It is not necessary to be a specialist in a particular area to be able to read and understand the published literature.

I do not work in this field, but I don't think you have answered your own question. What experience do you have in this field?

I found this article after reading another thread on here. What is your opinion on this doctor's approach?

Deconstructing Gender in Trans-Gender Identities

Discussion on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303573-This-is-what-the-Portman-Clinic-had-to-say-about-Gender-Transition-in-2002

Pratchet OldCrone

Some of you have stated your background and I don’t assume what people do or what their experiences are, but I am interested in whether any of you have worked in the field of treating or supporting people with the diagnosis of gender incongruence (gender dysphoria/GID)?

You did not answer my question. I would like to know your experience in the above.

Yes I have read the book. It's a very good book that talks about concepts of gender and gender identity in relatiion to sex characteristics. There is a long list of references to other material. It is written by a hetrosexual man, who uses comedy in his representations to engage his audience. Check his website itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/

*gap not gsp

Thanks @HilaryMGSDC Do you have a copy of that book.? It seems to be more about a pragmatic/social justice approach to truth and is written by a stand up comedian with no obvious academic credentials. I was thinking of buying it anyway but what i really need is something to bridge the gsp i.e. sonething that starts at thd gender is a social construct position, criticises it and explains how people have arrived at the boy brain girl brain position. The thing is, he mentions academic sources in his appendices and I wondered if there were referenced books in there that are more the kind of thing I'm looking for.

HilaryMGSDC
Not having realised the possibility that you may have a gender identity that is not conflicted with you body is not prove that an internal sense of gender identity does not exist.

In what way might a gender identity conflict with one's body? What do you see as the relationship between gender identity and the body? Are you talking about sex dysphoria (a revulsion with one's sexed body) or something else? And even if someone is disgusted by their own body, does this necessarily have any effect on their "gender identity"?

HilaryMGSDC
I believe what that are saying is that those children in the study had responses appropriate for their age similar to their sex/gender or cross sex gender identity / gender expression.

That wasn't what I was asking, though. I was asking how a child, or indeed anyone, lives in an opposite sex "gender identity". Or as they put it:

To be included in the current study, children had to be 5 to 12 years old and live in all contexts as the gender expression “opposite” of their natal sex.

What does this mean, other than stereotypical modes of behaviour or dress? I suppose they could be using names typical of the opposite sex and other people use opposite sex pronouns for them. So again, I ask, what does it mean for a prepubescent child to live like someone of the opposite sex?

Prawnofthepatriarchy Imnobody4 R0wantrees seafret SarahCarer OldCrone

We all have our view/position on the outcome of studies looking into whether gender identity / brain gender differences can be measured. I think we would all agree that this is difficult to prove or disprove as it was mentioned earlier that you cannot take an image of our sense of being, our thoughts, beliefs, our sexual orientation/attraction or our gender identity.

We can all look at studies and point to the statements that support our own positions or if you prefer your beliefs. This does not move forward the argument on whether people diagnosed with gender incongruence should be subjected to the same treatment that would be considered as conversion therapy for sexual orientation.

Looking at sexual orientation, a majority on this thread believe it is not a choice but it is an innate part of one’s core identity that cannot be altered, yet this cannot be measured in a way that you wish to impose on those who think gender identity is innate and also part of one core identity that is not a choice or that can be measured.

I have an open mind on the causality but lean towards an unconscious development of the brain (or let’s say mind if you prefer) that affects our core identities when it comes to defining belief in one’s sense of sex, sexual identity and gender identity.

I note that it was mentioned by some that you do not believe there is such a thing as gender identity as you do not think you have one yourself. It could be possible that due to having no conflict between your own gender identity / sex or gender you have not had to contemplate this in the same way a person diagnosed with gender incongruence would. Not having realised the possibility that you may have a gender identity that is not conflicted with you body is not prove that an internal sense of gender identity does not exist.

Some of you have stated your background and I don’t assume what people do or what their experiences are, but I am interested in whether any of you have worked in the field of treating or supporting people with the diagnosis of gender incongruence (gender dysphoria/GID).

OldCrone
Just a short comment on the other paper you linked to
rcgd.isr.umich.edu/seminars/Winter2017/Olson.Key.Eaton.2015.pdf
I really do wonder what that means. Can you explain how a prepubescent child lives in an opposite sex 'gender identity'?

I believe what that are saying is that those children in the study had responses appropriate for their age similar to their sex/gender or cross sex gender identity / gender expression. It seemed self evident to me.

text from study
Conclusion
In summary, our findings refute the assumption that transgender children are simply confused by the questions at hand, delayed, pretending, or being oppositional. Instead, transgender children show responses that look largely indistinguishable from those of cisgender children, who match transgender children’s gender expression on both more- and less-controllable measures. Further, and addressing the broader concern about transgender individuals’ mere existence raised at the outset of this article, the data reported here should serve as evidence that transgender children do indeed exist and that their identity is a deeply held one