Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

What is conversion therapy for gender identity, Snappity? Could you describe it for me, as I'm really unclear what it is you object to.

Another person querying it for trans people but not lesbians and gay men.

You are challenging banning conversion therapy for gender identity but not sexual orientation. I see that as discrimination.

No. What I’m doing is asking someone who believes that conversion therapy for gender identity should be illegal to explain how they have come to that position and what they believe constitutes conversion therapy for trans people. What I’m beginning to suspect is that you have no idea.

What is conversion therapy for gender identity, Snappity? Could you describe it for me, as I'm really unclear what it is you object to.

Discriminatory against who? In what way?

You are challenging banning conversion therapy for gender identity but not sexual orientation. I see that as discrimination.

It is my way of saying that I find your questions discriminatory.

Eh?
Discriminatory against who? In what way?

The memorandum is causing exactly the same sort of issues for lots of professionals. The ethical issues need a proper review rather than being nodded through by a few individuals in the current climate of threats and silencing.

Why, when the main medical bodies have already said it is unethical?

No. The MoU makes clear that it is not intended to stop psychological and medical professionals working with trans and gender questioning clients from performing a clinical assessment of suitability prior to medical intervention'

Then nobody can object to making it illegal.

Is this your way of saying you can’t answer these questions?

It is my way of saying that I find your questions discriminatory.

Snappity
As far as I can see this is about approaching treatment with preconceived ideas not a specific treatment, so I can't see how it can be banned. It's just good practice.
' Does the MoU mean doctors always have to say yes to requests for medical intervention to aid transition?
No. The MoU makes clear that it is not intended to stop psychological and medical professionals working with trans and gender questioning clients from performing a clinical assessment of suitability prior to medical intervention'

So why aren't you questioning what conversion therapy is for lesbians? Or getting us lesbians to detail why it is bad - or even worse - asking us to make a case for conversion therapy by setting out its aims?

Is this your way of saying you can’t answer these questions?

That court case write up differs from the way the actual case discussed and presented the issues which was around medical advice about the best interests of a dysphoric child, not 'living authentically' or avoiding conversion therapy. Which demonstrates exactly the issue with defining what gender identity conversion therapy even means and how using it as a lens shifts the focus from 'what is best for this child' to 'this child must trans that is the answer.'

The memorandum is causing exactly the same sort of issues for lots of professionals. The ethical issues need a proper review rather than being nodded through by a few individuals in the current climate of threats and silencing.

You seem to be convinced that "conversion therapy" for trans people is a bad thing. Can you explain what is meant by "conversion therapy" in the context of trans people? What would be the aims of the therapy? What would be the desired outcome?

So why aren't you questioning what conversion therapy is for lesbians? Or getting us lesbians to detail why it is bad - or even worse - asking us to make a case for conversion therapy by setting out its aims?

Yes Old Crone also asks the kind of questions I would like to be discussed a bit more.

Also I’ve skimmed through your original link and the study it refers to, and I’m still not clear on the numbers of specifically trans people that undergo or are expected to undergo conversion therapy? The study only refers to LBGTQ people which if my understanding is up to date sort of means everyone. Do we have numbers for trans people specifically?

In the vain hope of drawing out some clarity here - are the activist contingent are saying 'Conversion therapy = helping trans presenting young people feel happy with the body they were born with, through extensive, compassionate counselling'?

Snappity
You seem to be convinced that "conversion therapy" for trans people is a bad thing. Can you explain what is meant by "conversion therapy" in the context of trans people? What would be the aims of the therapy? What would be the desired outcome?

I am sure that the medical profession is better placed to answer that than me.

Yes I don’t doubt that’s true but I’m interested in your opinion as someone who has thought about this and obviously has a strong opinion. Just in a general way, what sort of parameters do you think therapy should have? What sort of subjects should be allowed and what avenues of discussion would constitute conversion therapy?

Well an anonymous counsellor based in the gender identity clinic recently reported that she feels she can’t properly counsel the children she sees due to the memorandum of understanding. Just because NHS Scotland signed up to it doesn’t mean the people actually working with these kids think it’s a good idea. Hence she couldn’t speak out freely. We all know which way the Scottish government are going with this process and it’s a scary prospect

Snappity At what point does talking therapy become conversion therapy in respect of trans people?

I am sure that the medical profession is better placed to answer that than me.

The UK Council for Psychotherapy has a Memorandum of Understanding against conversion therapy, including for gender identity

www.psychotherapy.org.uk/about-ukcp/public-policy/conversion-therapy/

They state

Since then, all major professional bodies representing psychological therapy in the UK have made clear that offering conversion therapy would be in breach of their professional codes of practice.

Any indeed these organisations plus NHS England and NHS Scotland have signed the Memorandum of Understanding.

Given such strong medical evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is unethical, maybe those saying it should not be made illegal can explain why they don't accept the overwhelming medical consensus?

I'd also like to know the answer to that. The only thing I can think of is that it's therapy to help people to come to terms with the body they have, rather than be subjected to a lifetime of medication and major surgery.

I guess so Old Crone. The idea of talking therapy being a conversion therapy rests on the presumption of the existence of a gender identity firstly, and then that gender identity can be at odds with your sexed body. If either of those things are false in any or all cases, it’s just therapy.

Snappity At what point does talking therapy become conversion therapy in respect of trans people?

We are talking about the U.K. though, snappity. The original post is about a change to U.K. law.

Yes, but people are denying that conversion therapy exists. It does. It should be banned and those practising it prosecuted.

We are talking about the U.K. though, snappity. The original post is about a change to U.K. law.

www.losangelesblade.com/2018/02/08/ohio-trans-boy-seeks-judges-ok-avoid-conversion-therapy/amp/

If conversion therapy for gender identity does not exist, how come one child had to go to court to prevent it?

Cruella
I'd also like to know the answer to that. The only thing I can think of is that it's therapy to help people to come to terms with the body they have, rather than be subjected to a lifetime of medication and major surgery.

That can't be it, though, because nobody would be against such an outcome.

What snappity's article highlights to me is the danger of private medicine!

In the U.K., medics and therapists won't be delivering aversive techniques to children because their parents are fundamentalist bigots.