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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

338 replies

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 17:56

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

OP posts:
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R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 19:57

Independent article linked above:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-theresa-may-gay-conversion-therapy-lgbt-action-plan-theresa-may-a8425581.html

Whilst the focus of the article is on gay conversion therapy see reference to memorandum of understanding and reference to Malta's progressive legislation.

(extract)
"Several organisations, including NHS England, the British Psychological Society, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists published a “memorandum of understanding” in 2014 describing conversion therapy as “unethical and potentially harmful”.

Despite campaigns and attempts by backbench MPs to ban the practice there are currently no laws against the practice and the LGBT+ charity, Stonewall, suggests there is evidence that individuals continue to experience the therapies.

The organisation’s “Unhealthy Attitudes” report, published in 2015, claimed that one in 10 health and social care staff have witnessed colleagues express the belief that sexual orientation can be “cured”.

In 2016, Malta became the first European country to outlaw conversion therapy after the country’s parliament voted unanimously for a bill which detailed fines and jail sentences for any individual found guilty of trying to “change, repress or eliminate a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and/or gender expression”.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 19:51

Jeremy Corbyn
"Labour is calling on the Government to commit to a full ban on sexuality and gender identity conversion therapies. This cruel practice has been allowed to spread fear and hatred in our society for far too long."

twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1013781974681554945

Urgent:  banning gender identity conversion
CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 02/07/2018 15:10

Interesting. Thanks for posting this R0wantrees.

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2018 14:47

Yes, I think this is the ambition -to make affirmation the only possible legal treatment.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 07:49

I think LMs article demonstrates some of the scope which may be included should gender identity be included in the proposed law.

Starkstaring · 02/07/2018 07:46

Agreeing with someone that what they are doing is a healthy choice does not make it so.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 07:40

Some TRAs claim that an approach that isn't affirmative can be 'conversion therapy'.

This may be both their perspective and a powerful allegation.

Important insight into the bigger picture can be gained by reading LM's writing on the matter:

I found a letter from an Alice, along with pages of information and statistics. The letter told me in no uncertain terms that I couldn’t become a woman: that ‘transgenderism’ was displeasing to God; and that by turning to prayer he could help me to embrace my ‘true male gender’.

The accompanying information presented studies and ideas such as that transitioning medically would make me more suicidal and was an inadequate treatment; testimonies from ‘sex change regreters’ who underwent medical transition only to discover that it didn’t help them; as well as moral panics about the transgender lobby and the damage they are doing to our country’s young people. She also offered up some contact information.

I was sceptical, and a little internet searching confirmed to me that the information was little more than propaganda; which I put to Alice via the phone number she had provided. She offered me a session to talk and some weeks later we met up. I’m occasionally accused by online transphobes of ignoring differing perspectives in my role as women’s officer of my local political group. The reality is I’m happy to engage with any of the roughly 400 women I represent; and I’ve never not done so but with the accusation in mind I’d accepted...

(continues with desription of LM and Alice meeting which is worth reading carefuly)

(concludes)
"What struck me later was how rampant messages comparable to conversion therapy were on the internet. Sites like Twitter and Mumsnet are rife with this sort of transphobia; a lot of which is directed at me personally. The idea that trans women like me are really cis men is something that isn’t being challenged or tackled enough by these websites. These online trolls also actively push refuted or outright fake studies knowing full well they are false. They are often convinced something must have happened to us to make us trans and similarly ignore our experiences and evidence to the contrary.

Transphobes on Twitter are little better than the conversion therapists of the world. The main and perhaps only difference is the latter tends to ask for money. Further than just proposing laws to prohibit dangerous types of therapy; the government needs to take a tougher stance against this hate speech, especially when it has a conversion message. We know this form of bullying cause self harm and suicide; both of which I’ve been encouraged to try by these communities. The reality is trans youth are disproportionately harmed by these messages and much more vulnerable to receiving them.
I’ve been on a much needed break from social media, and it’s accompanying transphobia since that day in the library. I wouldn’t wish such a ‘therapy’ on anyone, especially alone and repeatedly. The experience has been a powerful reminder to me that I don’t have to defend my identity to anyone. I am who I am and I’m very proud to be me; and yet in the weeks following the meeting I can’t help but reflect on how right Alice was about certain things — like how my family would inevitably love me much more if I detransitioned and lived a lie. It’s worrying how these insecurities are harnessed as weapons.

If the ‘therapist’ is reading this. I hope our encounter made you reconsider all or any of your points; and I hope you take some or all of the following away: My name is Lily. I am a woman. I’ve been so since before I could put it into words because I was born this way. My identity doesn’t need fixing because it isn’t a problem. I love myself, I am loved and I will be loved by so many people because of the person I am; a person who has so much to offer this world — trans people have so much to offer. The world just has to let us."

medium.com/@lilymadigan/my-difficult-experience-with-conversion-therapy-74c2ad756d28

NB Please dont breach MN rules in commenting on this article

OldCrone · 29/06/2018 21:51

When the Transgender Trend Schoolkit was released earlier in the year, I remember it was accused and condemned as advocating conversion therapy.

There is only one mention of 'conversion therapy' in the document:
The issue of ‘transgender kids’ has become a political social justice issue and anything other than affirmation of a child’s ‘gender identity’ has been painted as ‘conversion therapy’ by health organisations pressured by activists.

Didn’t a certain male lanour women’s officer misread the word ‘conversation’ in the schoolkit?

There is only one mention of the word 'conversation':
Empathy and understanding can be expressed through listening both to the child who identifies as transgender and to other children who may be confused or worried, and by acknowledging children’s feelings without judgment. At the same time teachers need to be sensitive about the context of any conversations and make professional decisions about when to draw the line and when to seek advice.

Conclusion is that the people complaining about it hadn't actually read it.

Mossandclover · 29/06/2018 21:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

R0wantrees · 29/06/2018 18:48

I am glad that the Memorandum of Understanding has come up.

I've been curious about what it is, how it came to be.

When the Transgender Trend Schoolkit was released earlier in the year, I remember it was accused and condemned as advocating conversion therapy. Is that right Snappity?

I think there was a significant letter in a medical journal which was connected... can't remember the details. It did contribute in the early weeks to a belief that the TGT toolkit was 'unsound'.

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 17:20

Adding gender is a grave mistake.

Conversion therapy for gay people is wrong. We agree on that I hope?

Right: scenario. Young woman questions gender identity. She is autistic and doesn’t ‘fit’ female stereotypes. She’s finding she is attracted to other girls.

Which is more ethical?

Allowing that young woman to grow through puberty and perhaps realise she’s a lesbian, which receiving psychological support to understand that society’s stereotypes around gender are toxic.

Or 2. Telling that young woman she’s actually a boy, starting puberty blockers (irreversible negative effects, including cognitive damage, osteoporosis, joint damage, metabolic damage etc) and channelling her down a path that has no exit ramp?

Option two- that IS conversion therapy.

So how will that be reconciled in law with banning gay conversion therapy?

SquishySquirmy · 29/06/2018 17:18

If a young teenager came out, and told you that they thought they may be homosexual it would be very wrong to try to "cure" them.

I also think it would be very wrong to forbid them from ever questioning their sexuality again in the future.
eg, "You said you thought you might be gay (or straight) at 13, you can't go back on that".
Because although most teenagers do know their sexuality at this age, it is possible to be confused. It is rare, but it happens.
Luckily you can be gay/straight/bi without making permanent changes to your body. Sexuality is complex and not everyone fits into neat little boxes.

But taking puberty blockers or undergoing surgery has permanent effects. It is not fair to push children towards this option without really exploring every other option first. Exploring the other options first is not conversion therapy, and really should never be compared to the barbaric practice of "curing" homosexuals.

OvulaRasa · 29/06/2018 16:38

Typical double thought tactics. Trans has nothing to do with sexuality. Any comparison with homosexuality is nonsensical. Trans is an identity or feeling not a sexual orientation. Homosexuality has to do with loving people of same sex as you, not wanting to pass as a different sex to the one you were born into.

Conversion therapy is conversation therapy and that could be the answer to some very distressed people. Why can't you have both?

Imnobody4 · 29/06/2018 16:10

Snappity
Do you believe a good professional should have an open mind and explore all avenues to agree the best outcome with and for the patient. This may or may not be transition?
Sexual orientation is a completely different subject, please stop conflating the two.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/06/2018 15:40

Ace post, Pencils. The trans critical health professionals website is now members only due to the real risk to their jobs of discussing their grave concerns about childhood transition.

I still can't quite believe that this is even a thing. Both my DPs were HCP. I grew up hearing how they spoke about and cared about their patients. The posters on the now locked site spoke in exactly the same way. But in a world where people seek to give an <a class="break-all" href="https://gendertrender-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/aydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F08%2F21%2Faydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit%2F&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F08%2F21%2Faydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit%2F&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F08%2F21%2Faydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit%2F" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">underage girl with Down's syndrome a double fucking mastectomy, taking a gentle, responsibile, evidence based approach can risk a HCP's career.

lurker33 · 29/06/2018 15:23

Snappity, is it not you that is scaremongering?

Did you actually read what Pencils posted above or have you just assumed that therapists are only going to want to 'take the trans away'?Confused

SquishySquirmy · 29/06/2018 12:40

"So why aren't you questioning what conversion therapy is for lesbians? Or getting us lesbians to detail why it is bad - or even worse - asking us to make a case for conversion therapy by setting out its aims?"

In my opinion...
any effort made to persuade lesbians that not being sexually attracted to penis-people makes them a bad person is a form of conversion therapy.
hth.

OldCrone · 29/06/2018 12:27

What's your opinion on transing the gay away, Snappity?

Calls for the immediate medicalisation of GNC children are a form of conversion therapy in that it forces children who would otherwise likely have grown up gay or lesbian into quasi heterosexuals on lifelong medication.

Snappity · 29/06/2018 12:14

So much scaremongering on this thread.

Do you agree that it should be illegal for an organisation or particular therapist advertises to advertise that they can "take the gay away" or "take the trans away"? And that any therapy they then do provide should be illegal?

Do you agree that if an organisation or particular therapist has a policy of attempting to discourage transition or a non-straight sexual orientation in all, or substantially all cases, that any therapy they provide should be banned?

Maybe there is more, but that's a start for discussion.

OldCrone · 29/06/2018 11:40

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld
Not trying to derail. I was trying to be brief while typing on a tiny keypad, but obviously my meaning wasn't clear. So now I'm sitting with a proper keyboard in front of me I'll explain a bit more.

You said: Or did you miss the part where the poster demanded that trans children should be forbidden from dressing how they look, presenting how they like, and changing their name

I think you were probably referring to the post upthread where someone else said: Children are going on puberty blockers. That necessarily has to be done before puberty, ie. not after 4-5 years of therapy, and parents have reported on here that therapy simply isn't being offered to explore these kids issues, it's straight to affirmation, changing presentation and name at school etc. ie. definitely not waiting for other mental health issues to be eliminated or controlled.

The children being referred to here are being told that the best thing for them is to be affirmed in their transgender identity, and to change their name accordingly.

I actually disagree with that poster that changing presentation is any sort of issue - I think both girls and boys should be able to present as they wish in terms of clothes, hairstyles, etc. Changing names informally is also not an issue - many people do this, using a nickname instead of their given name. There is no reason why teachers in schools should not use a preferred name when speaking to the child; the child's given name only needs to be used for more "official" purposes such as exam entries.

There is evidence that children who undergo a social transition early in life find it difficult to go back to living as their birth sex if they realise that their transgender identity was just a phase. My view is that the name change is relatively trivial, but the instant affirmation of their transgender identity and use of opposite sex pronouns is problematic.

Implicit in this instant affirmation and change of pronouns is the idea that you can actually change sex. Particularly in the case of younger children who have not yet learned enough biology to understand that this is not possible.

Time to bring out the GIRES penguins. This organisation is going into schools with their delightful penguin stories, teaching the youngest children that they can change sex, and it's as simple as saying "I'm a boy" if you're a girl or "I'm a girl" if you're a boy. And magically, you can change sex.
www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Penguin-Story-Trans-Boy.pdf

So we finally get to the question I asked in my last post: Do you think it's right that children should be taught that they can change sex?

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld · 29/06/2018 10:30

OldCrone

So you don't want to address the point and have decided to try and derail by trying your hand at a ridiculous and deeply biased canard.

No, not interested. And in case my view isn't clear, "No" isn't the beginning of a negotiation, it's a statement in it's own right.

PencilsInSpace · 29/06/2018 09:50

There's a good Transgender Trend article on the problems with the MoU here.

During the time James Caspian was a trustee for the UK Council for Psychotherapy he acted as a consultant to the working group drawing up the MoU (Daily Mail article):

Everyone in the working group — including James — agreed conversion therapy should be banned.

James, however, wanted the memorandum to specifically accept that some people regret their transition and that there are patients who might have other underlying psychological issues.

Without spelling out these irrefutable facts, he feared health professionals could be prevented from exploring the potentially deeper reasons for a patient saying they wanted to change sex.

The committee, which included health professionals and representatives from the outspoken LGBTIQ (where 'I' stands for intersex and 'Q' for queer) group Pink Therapy and the Association of Christian Counsellors, eventually decided not to include James's recommendations.

The Memorandum of Understanding will take effect this month. Effectively, it could prevent a therapist, when presented with a person who wants to change sex, from exploring any possible ulterior reason behind their decision. This disturbs James greatly.

'Any ethical therapist wouldn't try to impose their view of how a client should be — but surely they should be able to explore if gender identity is truly the psychological issue,' he says.

'We need a framework that allows therapists to freely explore other underlying issues that may be present before they start gender reassignment treatment, without the fear of being accused of conversion therapy if they do so.

'The Memorandum of Understanding is saying we must accept whatever gender identity a client says they are without question.

'I was one of the few people involved who understood transition from a clinical perspective and was not a campaigner, so I had no axe to grind — just concern for the clients and the professionals,' he says.

'When I looked at the ban on conversion therapy, I said, 'If you're not careful, you're going to make people think they can't ever question what somebody coming to them is saying and that's dangerous'.

'Already counsellors have contacted me to say they're worried that if a young client — say a 16-year-old — comes to them with a number of mental health issues or a history of sexual abuse and says, 'I want to transition', that it won't be safe for them to say, 'Well, let's look at this sexual abuse you had.

Could that have anything to do with the way you feel about your body?', because that could be construed as conversion therapy.

'One psychotherapist who works with young people called me last night to say she is worried this memorandum could simplify things to a scary degree.

'She said: 'If all I did was affirm my patients were trans without exploring any mental health issues they might have, I don't think I'd be able to help them properly.'

'Equally, people are afraid it might not be safe to work with someone who wants to detransition, i.e. reverse their sex change.

'Let's say a trans female, who is no longer happy in their gender, goes to a counsellor to say they want to go back to living as a man. Could that counsellor be accused of conversion therapy if they help them?

'I kept arguing for specific wording to say, 'We do acknowledge some people do regret their transitions and reverse them, or change their minds.'

But every time I tried to put that wording in it was rejected.

'There are lots of activists within the LGBT community and I sensed that everyone was scared of them.

'One of them said to me on the phone, 'Are you going to block this memorandum?' Of course I didn't want to block it, but I wanted to make it safe for everybody.

'It was a long phone call and quite intimidating. I felt whatever I said was being interpreted as a threat.

I felt this person wasn't prepared to listen to anything I was saying. It literally made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. That's really powerful that sort of fear.

'The problem is that the activists feel only they have any right to say anything and anyone who disagrees with them walks on eggshells for fear of being accused of being transphobic.

I had sleepless nights over the memorandum. I would wake up at 3am worrying about it.

'At that point, I honestly felt I was the only person in the world who was carrying the interests of people who had transitioned and regretted it. Nobody else involved knew what I knew about how these people were suffering, because I was researching them.'

OldCrone · 29/06/2018 09:06

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld
Do you think it's right that children should be taught that they can change sex?

lurker33 · 29/06/2018 09:01

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld , sorry I missed that.

If that's what they were saying then I can't agree with them.

What I can say is that I am extremely uncomfortable with medically transitioning children.

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld · 29/06/2018 08:43

"Nobody here would advocate trying to persuade a transgender person to adopt a feminine persona when they identity as masculine or vice versa. That would be conversion therapy."

[snort]

Somebody on this thread did exactly that. Or did you miss the part where the poster demanded that trans children should be forbidden from dressing how they look, presenting how they like, and changing their name because, something something, won't somebody think of the children?