Reality check

And I totally understand why so many women curl up into a protective ball and stop interacting at that point, but if we don't push back against people like that we'll end up with a society based on what they want and what they think is reasonable. Which is a rather sobering thought.

It comes across online too, though the current guidelines may occasionally prevent us from pointing it out when we see it.

Lang, you are exactly right. Even I, with my universally lovely male relations, have had quite enough experience of the abusive ones to spot them very fast. It's a feeling you get when they interact. A real gut level feeling. It's chilling.

Here's my philosophy:

Women who are living, breathing embodiments of the Duluth wheel are as rare as hen's teeth. That's why the crime statistics show such a stark difference in offending between the sexes.

If you encounter someone who is a living, breathing embodiment of the Duluth wheel - online or offline - you can be pretty sure that that person is not a woman.

I feel this is a reasonable rule of thumb for a woman existing in a patriarchal society scarred by male violence to live by.

(And here, once more, is the Duluth wheel.)

I expect if any of those people came on here and reported posts made. Against them mumsnet would take them down. I don't go on aibu I read the film and TV sections a lot occasionally post though current not upto date with TV good fight so don't want spoilers

"My partner started talking to a group of supportive women and then she stopped doing what I wanted her to" is a tale as old as time.

Maybe I didn't type that correctly so to clarify I ment unless people want to attack people in a personal way. Then it's mumsnets forum and it's there rules not ours

Doesn't seem to stop the threads attacking Robbie Williams, Jo Wylie et al...it is only a certain type of someone that isnt allowed personal attacks evidently. I take it you have never been on aibu...why would you of course, nothing of interest there...

Mumsnet has been wonderful throughout the 21st century for helping women to get out of abusive relationships and situations with abusive males.

Long may that continue.

Maybe I didn't type that correctly so to clarify I ment unless people want to attack people in a personal way. Then it's mumsnets forum and it's there rules not ours

It's not up to me it's upto mumsnet

People are also allowed to have views that are "personal in nature". Expressing them may or may not be polite in a given set of circumstances, but suggesting that maybe people ought not to be allowed to have thoughts that other people don't like is pretty damn creepy.

Gee...thank you Bespin for allowing us an opinion and sharing our own points of view. We would have never known that until you pointed it out.

I hope Damn's ex isn't still here and having to read that outpouring of rage, but if she is , ,

In no way do I want this forum to be shut down I think it does amazing things in supporting people and it allows you all to share your views even if they are not mine. You all have the right to have them as long as they are not personal in nature I think we should be big enough to expect others point of view

butthen

But then she found Mumsnet.

Lots of people have taken note.

So, in this thread alone we have Super trying to "encourage" women to watch what they say because the police might investigate them for having opinions, and Damn announcing that they're determined to have Mumsnet shut down - not just the Feminism board, the entire site - because their ex found support here and stopped doing what Damn wanted her to. A large forum covering a diverse range of topics with 12 million unique users, and Damn wants it shut down because they're angry with their ex wife.

Are you seeing this, lurkers? Journalists and MPs in particular, but also the general public? Do you see this behavior and do you understand what it means in terms of whether it's wise to allow people who think the way Damn does to influence governmental and organizational policies?

I think the reason that a lot of women are trying to stay out of this debate is that they're afraid of what will happen if they challenge people who think the way Damn does. And I think we have to do it anyway.

Wanting to shut down a huge forum with 12 million unique vistors a month (mostly women), because your wife has read ideas here that you don't approve of, is a bit extreme and everybody can see that.

It makes you look like an abuser.

Nobody who employs such tactics can pretend they have any legitimate part in civil debate.

Thanks for the interesting thread. Agree with the DARVO said upthread, o my, that is so clear. Shutting down a whole site, because you don't like what is said or wanting to shut it down because people outside mumsnet are waking up to the fact they don't want unisex services and facilities for everything?

Yes, Waddle, or at least that's my understanding. At present...

So in the context of a civil debate, expressed with a dispassionate, factual tone, not directed at any individual, and used to express one of the main specific points in this whole debate, we are permitted to say:

Trans women are men. Trans women are male.

I do hope so.

It's important to know which words we are still permitted to use here and in which contexts, so we can decide whether MN is still a viable platform for discussing women's rights.

So i assume it's ok to say
I would prefer the open changing rooms that my 10yr old DD changes in for swimming to be female only/single sex, which means I dont want transwomen to use them because transwomen are male.

Thank you Waddle!

There are a lot of men like that out there. I expect many of the women in FWR have met similar types.

Yes, yes there are. Yes, yes we have. And yes, yes we recognise them wherever and whenever they decide to pop up in our lives.

I think most women have a spidey sense for it. Born from experience.