Reality check

No one is attacking transpeople.
Women are concerned over the effects on women and children’s safety, privacy and dignity, and the effect on child safeguarding.

I’ll repeat what I wrote earlier about ‘starting a post with a statement that needs rebuttal.’

*now hang on there just a moment because I see this technique a LOT. It’s a statement placed in a post that assumes a negative and builds the rest of the post on this and this does the following - again I speak in generalities

1. It sets the tone as factual when it’s not. It’s a statement designed to set the tone as ‘x has a record of hate and hostility.*
2. It forces JADE (justify apologise defend or explain behaviour.)
3. It derails.

So I read that, and now what am I about to say, as Ms. Jo Average? I’m now at pains to post some sort of justification that I’m not engaging in any kind of hatred at all. I’m quite indignant about it! I go to great lengths to prove I am not! So now my energy is wasted on a rebuttal of a point I shouldn’t have be making because speaking about gender critical matters is not hateful. Nor is concern for safeguarding of children. Nothing I’ve said is hateful.

So I’m on the back foot, defending myself as women so often do, the thread is derailed and the default position is now that we are all so hateful that we need to think about the police combing through our posts.

do you see what is happening here? these are control techniques.

It’s not a nice thought is it?

• create false statement that sets a position
• detail and force apology/justification
• create implicit threat involving power structure/law enforcement.*

A reminder of Justine Roberts' statement to The Times April 15th 2018:

'Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts: Transgender activists try to curb free speech on site'

"The founder of Mumsnet says transgender “thought police” are pressurising advertisers to withdraw from Britain’s most popular parenting website because it allows the discussion of trans topics.

Justine Roberts said she had been approached by three significant advertisers who had been threatened by trans groups.

“Transgender activists have contacted Mumsnet advertisers and said they will be organising a boycott of their products if they don’t remove their advertising from Mumsnet,” Roberts said.

The website had told the advertisers that it “works hard to keep the discussions civil” and was determined to let them continue.

“What’s worrying to me is the thought-police action around speech and the shutting down of the right to be able to disagree and immediately labelling it as transphobic,” Roberts said.

The threats are the latest move in a campaign by transgender activists to inhibit discussion of potential legal changes that would allow people born male to self-identify as women.

Feminists say the plans threaten women’s rights and protected spaces. Trans activists say that to oppose them is bigotry. They have pressurised dozens of venues into cancelling meetings on the subject.

One meeting that went ahead at the House of Commons led to a complaint to the parliamentary standards commissioner against David Davies, the MP who organised it.

Trans activists bombarded the Commons authorities with demands that the meeting be cancelled with one, Ariel Moss, boasting on Twitter that she “rang them three times today under different voices and phones”.

Sometimes attempts to break up meetings have turned violent. Last week a trans activist, Tara Wolf, was convicted of assaulting a feminist who was attending a rally against the proposals.

Mumsnet, which has 12m monthly users but does not hold physical meetings, has become a prominent online forum for debate on trans subjects. A recent discussion about whether self-identified trans women should be allowed to use female-only cabins on the Caledonian Sleeper train made national news.

Roberts said: “A significant minority of our users feel very strongly about women’s rights and very uneasy [about the proposals]. This is an issue that needs to be discussed and that’s why we’re prepared to take any potential advertising hit.”

“There is a section of the hardline trans side which thinks that any discussion at all is by definition transphobic, but we’ve explained we’re working very hard to keep it civil,” she said.

“We have some guidelines, we keep people within [them], we ban anyone that’s persistently mean and that’s the way we’re handling it for now. Hopefully we’ll be able to hold that line because we think it’s important.”

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site

LangCleg
Women and girls are my priority. Always will be
Then why spend so much time and effort attacking trans people? Completely irrelevant.

this "war" is something that you have created, that only you can stop, and that it would be in everyone's best interests if you did

An apt description of the attack on women & girls rights. Do let us know when the penny drops & you back the fuck off from this mendacious assault on these hard fought for rights.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 from my mostly lurking on the fwr board of Mumsnet, I do not see posters inciting hatred.

I see them raising their valid concern that there should be certain, very limited, circumstances by which we as a society continue to segregate by sex rather than gender, in order to protect women and girls when they are at their most vulnerable.

This necessity arises from the issue of male violence against women and girls.

This is what posters here are discussing.

You do understand the definition of incitement to hatred doesn’t include non personal criticism in a general fashion?

Me saying that I have serious concerns over how Christianity is a patriarchal religion that has some troubling views on women is not, for example, inciting hatred against Christians.

Incitement to hatred is stuff like tommy Robinson outside grooming trials spouting off, or people telling lesbian marchers at pride that they will be ‘hung By the neck.’

That’s incitement.

You, on the other hand, are choosing to incite hatred of us because of what we are -- something over which we have no control, no choice, and which very few (if any) of us would have chosen if we had the choice.

Nobody hates you. Nobody on here knows you - apart from your ex/current wife ? if she is still here.

There will obviously be the odd person that 'hates' trans people, like the odd person that hates any type of group.

But you are choosing to come into a Feminist board, and continue to tell women they are doing feminism wrong. I'd suggest that you could just choose to focus on your own life and let women on here make their own minds up, find their own voices, and choose their own way of thinking.

It is an incredibly male thing to do; to police women. Don't you think? If you want to 'pass' - the main way of doing that is to stop behaving like the thought police and just live your own happy life.

You have already told us that you want to shut mumsnet down - to stop women having a space to talk.

You cannot have it both ways - you cannot be 'trans' when it suits and try to shut a woman's space down, and be a 'woman' when it suits because the very act of trying to shut a woman's space down, confirms the fact that you do not think of yourself as a woman.

Your own actions are the ones that are showing you are not a woman, and do not think of yourself as one; not ours.

Please don't report Damn's comments and ask for them to be deleted. It's far more useful for people to be able to see what they said, so they can understand what that means for the rest of this debate, than for us to end up with a confusing Swiss Cheese thread.

You, on the other hand, are choosing to incite hatred of us because of what we are

terfisaslur.com

Women and girls are my priority. Always will be.

Bottom right on the wheel - minimizing, denying, and blaming.

Seems saying you want mn shut down - removing vital support for unknown amounts of women - doesn't break talk guidelines.

Posie Parker asks:

"Does my 11year old daughter have the right to go into a female changing room and not see an adult penis?"

speech here:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=23&v=CvdJ1VEdC7I

Doing some good does not give anyone carte blanche to do harm.
If the harm that you are doing to trans people and there families contributed in some way to the good, then it might be tolerable. But it isn't. You are doing it because you get some perverse satisfaction out of trashing other people's lives.

But I still don't hate you as individuals: I hate what you have chosen to do -- and what you could easily choose not to do.

You, on the other hand, are choosing to incite hatred of us because of what we are -- something over which we have no control, no choice, and which very few (if any) of us would have chosen if we had the choice.

I'm not asking for your love or support, and I'm not "demanding" anything: I'm suggesting that this "war" is something that you have created, that only you can stop, and that it would be in everyone's best interests if you did.

I'd prefer my young daughters didn't see penis in the swimming pool changing rooms.

Vile anti-trans propaganda from the usual cabal.

It's really not difficult to spot, is it?

Are you seeing this, lurkers?

Delurking to say yes, AngryAttackKittens. Oh yes, I'm seeing this and taking note.

I'm also noting what Damn and TRAs write, and I'm telling them that they have done the most to change my view regarding the trans debate. They were responsible for my peak trans awakening. I'm telling them that I won't be silenced and be told to accept their demands with no debate. I'm telling them that I won't deny science.

Ours is not even a view, it's knowledge. The knowledge that sex is binary, based on reproductive role and immutable. We don't need to 'move it mainstream'. It is mainstream

Said it brilliantly.

This reminds me that I got my first deletion because I said trans are (the sex that shall not be named)

Oh, we can now say that transwomen are men and male? Did I get that right?

Newbie, you're a total pig. I'd completely missed the reference and now I'm going to have dancing teapots in my head all night!

a tale as old as time.

Thanks Kittens, now I've got the fucking Beauty and the Beast song in my head.

Z - formerly R - if you are the offensive poster on this thread, please take a look at what you are trying to achieve.
You have slated MN on your Twitter recently, which disappoints me. You have battled for heterosexual couples to be given the right to partake in civil ceremonies. This is quite right, and I thank you.
Now you are slating MN publicly for advocating women's rights.
Please look further than your nose. What do you want for your daughters?
Most of us, including myself, are fiercely defending the rights of women in general. This INCLUDES trans women, unquestionably.
However, we would like it if our daughters could get changed in communal changing rooms without seeing a penis.
I am old enough to deal with accidental penis revealing, but my daughters would be very concerned.
I prefer if women's spaces are penis free. Would you not agree to this basic request?
I'm not racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic. Genuinely. I just feel that women deserve the freedom to use changing areas that will not expose them to unwanted/unexpected male genitalia.
I'm fully behind the right to live as whatever you want. You can be a squirrel, a gerbil, the king of Spain. I don't care, honestly.
I just want my children/ other women to feel safe.
Right now, a lot of natal women feel unsafe, and that matters to me.
Does it not matter to you?

Thank you waddle.