Reality check

All people have the right to choose who they speak to both in real life and online.

They have the right to say they do not wish contact.

Their request should be respected.

If we find ourselves contributing to the same threads, please do not address me directly or quote my posts in order to engage me. This is a clear boundary. Please respect it. - @LangCleg to @Damnthatonestakentryanother2

I keep reading here that trans people the ones trying to shut down debate, yet here is an example of a trans woman being told she shouldn't even quote the opposing argument so that she can dispute it.

Freedom of speech and debate works both ways. If someone says something on here it is not reasonable in my view for them to specify which other members can or cannot quote what they say and engage with them in response.

Current thread which is concerning:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291922-Take-the-Gender-Identity-Disorder-self-test

Aren't they, Bowl. I know a couple who went through this. It was horrible for his poor wife. There was sexual stuff she found degrading and revolting. It's now over 6 years later, and things havegradually improved (largely due to gentle but persistent family pressure from the grandparents and siblings) but there was a lot of misery and of course the DC were distressed and confused

What so upsets the rest of the family is that having caused all this pain and hardship, the MtF is obviously extremely unhappy and isolated in their new role. There have been no relationships in all the years since they transitioned, and no friends. Maybe the person concerned thinks it's been worth it, but from the outside the family say it looks like serious MH issues that were misguidedly attached to an identity crisis.

Safeguarding is not a game, it is life-and-death to women and children. Thanks for your succinct post, HaXXor.

Transactivists identify as women. They appear to have no concern about or for us. They portray us and see us as the enemy which is wholly inconsistent with any claim to be women just like us cunty types.

The accusation that our gender critical activism is a game to us is purest DARVO. We are fighting for privacy, dignity, and safety in spaces where males would constitute an elevated threat to us. Safeguarding is not a game, it is life-and-death to women and children.

Bloody hell prawn the comments under that article are heartbreaking. So much misery. :(

Bloody genius Sophocles!

Damn’s posts are so on point i’m almost starting to think they’re an agent provocateur using the duluth wheel as as a cheat sheet.

Compare and contrast:

One side of the debate reports posts on every medium available, gets the forum rules changed and openly shares that they would rather the whole forum was lost than that a group of women should be able to share their thoughts.

And the other side positively begs for no one to report posts because they want them to remain in all their glory, so everyone can see what people who hold the opposite opinion actually think and be able to understand both sides fully.

It’s marvellous.

Just popping in whilst waiting for boss to show.

Still no receipts of MN Kampf yet?

Yes, please no-one report Damn's posts. In the event that Damn gets MN to delete their posts this thread will still be very telling.

My oh my what a thread.
Damn thank you so much for all your posts. I hope no-one reports them.

Over the years I've hung around on probably all the forums where trans widows hang out, and there's definitely a script.

Read the very long stream of comments under <a class="break-all" href="https://gendertrender-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/04/23/so-your-husband-is-becoming-a-woman-advice-from-women-whove-been-there/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F04%2F23%2Fso-your-husband-is-becoming-a-woman-advice-from-women-whove-been-there%2F" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this article. Very illuminating.

When you are used to constant assurance, disagreement will feel like hostility.

Then when the same women expect you to explain your anger, you can't. Because it's based on a false premise.

The anger is based on the patriarchal assumption that the opinions and wishes of the dominant class should always be prioritised over those of the subordinate class, and the subordinate class should sit down and shut up and keep their pointless opinions to themselves. Only this is suddenly not working for some members of the dominant class as they think it should. The resulting narcissistic meltdowns are splattered all over the feminism boards.

I wonder if sometimes, when trans people post on here, they are shocked because, in real life, they are on a mission of pursuing 'affirmation at all costs.'

This form is anonymous, it's huge, and its peopled by feminists, most of whom consciously disregard their socialisation.

When you are used to constant assurance, disagreement will feel like hostility.

Then when the same women expect you to explain your anger, you can't. Because it's based on a false premise.

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1004682774920523776

Janice Turner asked:

"Two male-bodied trans gender runners came first and second. What do you say to the girls who train so hard but can never win? Yet can’t even say: this is not fair."

Watch the video of High School sprint competition until the end and look at the faces of the girls who come 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Bowlofbabelfish

I will remind you that criticism isn’t hateful.

It can seem like that to some people - for example the concept of narcissistic rage links into this, but women assembling and speaking is neither incitement to hatred nor an attack.

Of course it's hateful. Women are TALKING. Having OPINIONS. ARGUING WITH (and comprehensively out-arguing) MEN. Demanding BOUNDARIES. Insisting that their voices are heard and their wishes are respected. Refusing to listen and defer to men.

All this is hate speech and must be attacked and stopped at all costs by the righteous rage of the patriarchal male.

And if you don't think that's what's going on here, then hang around a bit longer and read a bit more. That's exactly what's going on.

It's little wonder that women conclude that this aspect is another reason to keep spaces segregated.

Indeed. The real world is a dangerous place for women. Red flags are red flags are red flags. When someone waves them, see them.

Do you think women should have to compete against transwomen in athletics? Never mind what the Olympics governing body says, do you think that's fair and equitable?

I always thought of myself as 'edgy in a cardigan'; I never thought I would be accused of being part of a group that is providing access to 'dangerous material'.

I mean, I cannot wait to see this receipt.

I have to go out to a meeting now; for goodness sakes someone screen shot this material for me and pop it on the other place. I won't sleep tonight without the knowledge of what this dangerous material is.

This is a serious safeguarding issue and if concerns about it and how girls have been 'forgotten' can't be discussed on Mumsnet and more specifically on the Feminism and Women's Rights board then where?

Times article:
(extracts)
"The guidance says that teachers should not tell parents if their child changes gender in school unless the child, who could be as young as four, gives permission. It also suggests staff should inform councils about parents who “struggle” with their child’s transgender identity, and says parents should not be told if their children are sharing rooms with transgender pupils.

The guidelines were produced by LGBT Youth Scotland and endorsed by the government and 16 local authorities. They advise that pupils “should be supported to explore and express their identity regardless of their age”. (continues)

"Ciarán Kelly, the institute’s deputy director, said: “It beggars belief that the Scottish government has authorised a state-funded campaign group to dictate to teachers what their obligations are and strip parents of responsibilities.”
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/threat-of-legal-action-over-pupils-transgender-rights-qqr2dk97v

Herald:
THE rights of Scottish schoolgirls are being undermined by rules allowing pupils to adopt a different gender and share changing rooms, it has been claimed, as it emerged schools are unprepared for the controversial overhaul.

A series of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests have revealed that councils have widely backed guidelines produced by organisations campaigning for the rights of transgender people but have not considered how the new approach will affect children – particularly girls

The new guidelines tell teachers that if a transgender pupil wishes to share a changing room with "other young people who share their gender identity," they should be allowed to do so.

"There is no reason for parents or carers of the other pupils to be informed," it adds.

The guidelines say young people should be able to compete in the sports events for the gender they identify with, and says if other pupils are uncomfortable using changing rooms or toilets with transgender pupils, they should use other facilities or wait until the transgender pupil is done.

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account. (continues)

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

It’s like an infinite DARVO recursion loop, AAK. I expect the universe will implode in a puff of logic and rage any moment, which is a shame because it’s almost the weekend...

I never said or suggested that it was. But to go on deliberately pushing false "facts" that encourage people to hate or fear trans people is.

Well come on then. Stop with the mudslinging and let's have it.

Which are the wrong facts, exactly?

Can you define what you mean when you say transwomen are women, by the word woman? Do you think human being can change sex?
Are you prepared to acknowledge that there are certain situations where women need to be separated from transwomen?

But to go on deliberately pushing false "facts" that encourage people to hate or fear trans people is.

Which false facts?

What dangerous material? This isn't the Anarchist’s Cookbook, or Dabiq; it’s a parenting forum.

I believe we refer to Lily Madigan as ‘she’ by the way - those are her preferred pronouns.

But we do have quite a reach. You’re right on that. And isn’t public discussion on trans issues something that’s needed? I wish some of the issues I cared about were discussed more widely tbh, public discussion in an open and frank way is a good thing isn’t it?

When someone accuses other people of DARVO in response to having their own DARVO pointed out is that DARVO-ception?