As a biologist I can categorically state that human willy bearers are men no debate

Factual, yes.....but nice, no

On the other hand, it's in factual language, I think that actually it would be good if everyone can get to the stage where they can accept accurate medical language without offence. I knew I was there when my maternity notes described me as 'a morbidly obese, geriatric prima gravida' (I may have spelled some of that wrong) - and I found it both gob-stoppingly rude but completely accurate, and therefore amusing rather than offensive. When younger it would have left me pretty hurt, but I've grown up, and realised that facts are not judgement, and it doesn't matter.

I believe that everyone would be better if they could get to the stage of accepting themselves. Afterall, we're all supposed to be 'real' these days I thought.

I think the problem is that the EA exemptions are not utilised.
Third sector organisations are worried about funding, companies are worried about public image. They will not risk being labelled bigoted.
I think a big, sensitive media campaign is needed to demonstrate that wanting single sex provision is not about excluding anyone, it is about addressing differences in sexed bodies. This campaign should also demonstrate that single sex provision is not right for everyone and so additional provision is important.

Totally agree with that and when you read the equality act and even the existing grc both are attempting to achieve that very thing do they always achieve that no but does every bill address every eventuality many are often fudged through parliament and often need reviewing over time given case law as happened with the GRC originally and I suspect will happen with the equal marriage bill now that civil partnerships have been ruled legal for mixed sex couples. No one wants to lose their rights in this or take others but the more people draw lines in the sand the more it will feel like that when any ammendments happen either way. I often post on here the go out into the world and realise that it does not stop me just getting on with my life like everyone else

Good post Bespin

In many contexts, a persons sex or gender identity can/should have no relevance. We are just humans making the most of our time on earth.
However, there are some contexts where sex and gender identity are highly significant.

I find denial of biology and denial of gender identity equally frustrating.

We need to recognise that differences in our sexed bodies matter in a number of contexts, and these contexts can present challenges for many trans people.

Many people on this board would engage in exploration as to how to address these issues so long as ridiculous claims about changing sex and appropriation of sex were not made.

People with gender dysphoria have legitimate reasons for wanting and needing support, protections and provision. We just need to make sure that these are provided without negative impact on others who also want and need support, protections and provision

This is one of those stupid goady threads...

‘As a scientist I can categorically state that fat people have less physical capacity than thin people as they have to invest additional energy into carrying their adipose tissue around. In addition they have lower life expectancies and are generally considered unattractive by potential partners’.

Factual, yes.....but nice, no,

I totally understand and support the battle for women’s rights to their own spaces but there are ways of fighting for that without being rude. I suspect close to 100% of trans men know that ‘vagina’ created is not ‘real’ and they certainly know that they cannot have babies.

Most men have little view on the trans issue and , I suspect, view trans women differently on a fundamental level to natal women.

This whole clash is between a small number of women and an even smaller number of trans women.

Yes, it could be the tip of an iceberg but, equally, the sillly trans bloggers could be like extremist Moslem sites. I would not insult Islam (or broadcast my secular atheist truth) loudly on Internet forums as I know, regardless of the literal truth about the preachings of the prophet, it would not go down well,

I would, however, do what it takes to protect the rights of Jewish people to be safe and respected. There is a subtle difference between the two.

I would love to live and let live. The living and the letting live has generally been a thing I do.

However, that’s no longer on the table due to some extremely unreasonable behaviour by a small group of very unpleasant, very vocal activists who don’t speak for all transpeople, but certainly shout loud enough.

I will not have any truck with twisting, warping or denying science, or denying common sense and decency.

I will fight for the rights of women and girls to safe sex segregated spaces (and heck men too, men don’t want to give up their single sex spaces either)

I will fight till my last breath to protect and enhance child safeguarding regulations and view with deep, deep suspicion any person or group (who as I say is not all transpeople, but a small vocal minority) who press for anything that weakens child safeguarding.

You will get no arguments from me on stating biology you are indeed correct on the biological fact and that is what makes us transgendered. Our gender does not match our biological sex and sometimes its a hard thing to live with and a hard consept to explain to others who don't experience that. But I think we can all agree that it's a fact that it exists too. Now is it biology too or social or a bit of both no one as yet to get a definite answer to that so we can not state either way I tend to think a bit of both but it's hard to be objective when it's happening to you.

Everything else we are discussing is how society deals with the fact that although most people don't feel this way some people clearly do and do we allow social and legal constructs to represent that it not. Societies throughout civilisation have found different ways to deal with that question and ours at the moment appears to be this one. You all disagree with that so are looking to find a different way to address this issue. By keep stating that biology is a fact you are only addressing one part of the issue. Also to TRA's we spend our whole life's fighting this biological fact and coming to terms with it and if we are lucky we find a way to live with it a lot of us over years have not and we have lost so many talented people because if this fact.

Live and let live, keep words and spaces as they were.

This is a CNN ad, but I think you get the point.

Good post, op. Biology is real.
If everywhere on the entire Internet, everybody who said this was punished, if all the biology books had been burned, and there was widespread ignorance of where babies come from, I would have more sympathy with MNHQ's stance.
But Mumsnet is under attack because we are women and a threat, not because what we are saying here is more hateful than what everybody (especially men) is saying elsewhere. And they can try to restrict us all they like, it won't stop the attacks until Mumsnet has stopped being a place where women talk to each other. Women talking has ALWAYS threatened the patriarchy.
We can roll over and submit on this but Mumsnet will be attacked and attacked until all conversation about women's experience has been completely eviscerated. Because the attacks aren't really about us being transphobic, they're about the attackers being sexist.

Live and let live

You see I was good with that previously.

I don’t care what you wear, what name you call yourself or even too much which pronouns you prefer.

I was happily dealing with all the trans people I encountered with respect and kindness.

But that was before people started telling me that I had to get on board with the newspeak that “transwomen are women”.

That was before people started telling me that women have to relinquish hard won rights for the sake of men.

That was before trans activists started bullying and intimidating women who challenged their agenda.

So no “live and let live” doesn’t work for me any more. I’m not going to passively shrug my shoulders while the Emperor shows off his new clothes.

Can we please all just get on with it and stop fucking about. Live and let live
That is a luxury women are never allowed. We have to fight every generation to keep the rights the previous generation fought and won.

Got balls?=bloke
Got dick?=bloke
Got vag?=bird
Tits?=bird or fat bloke
I really don’t give a flying fart about whether you are a man or a woman, feel like you are a man or a woman or want to be a man or a woman.
Can we please all just get on with it and stop fucking about.
Live and let live

And I truly think I am finally done with MN.

What about women and girls?

Pressed post too soon with too much aperol inside me.

By my definition and by the definition of my university, my fellowship and my entire education...people born with a penis are men. Surgery to alter genitalia does not alter sex. Medical professionals who allude to this are facing many challenges within their respective fields and will (I believe, as do many of my colleagues) face legal challenges from patients.

I believe it is transphobia and medical negligence to con people into the thought process that certain surgical procedures will change their sex.

Sex / gender is genetically determined. Identity is not.

This could get interesting.

I like the biology/anatomy lesson
(I vaguely remember from soooo long ago - and also from well, ya know, LOOKING )

There was a lovely post on a thread about womens bodies yesterday. It said that a girl has all the eggs she'll ever have at about 20 weeks old. So this means that when I was in my mother's womb, I had the eggs to make my daughter and my mother had the eggs to make me at 20 weeks inside my grandmother's womb. And MY daughter is carrying a girl also. Womanhood is magical AND biological.

No 'deep wound that needs repeatedly poking' will EVER make a woman.

Thank you @Alexa488

So then, by your definition, men who are were assigned female at birth and who have had bottom surgery are men and, by corollary, women who were assigned male at birth and have had vaginoplasty are women?

Yep. I reject many of your terms but I get your jist.

By my definition and by the definition of my university, my fellowship and my entire education.

I love you Alexa.

Snappity, you're funny. Ha ha ha ha.

No, no bewilderness theirs is the vagina, the boring old cunty ones are 'front holes' dontchaknow?

Remember this: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2723175-Only-trans-women-have-vaginas-women-have-front-holes

How do people cope with the knowledge that biology is taught in schools and universities?

We all know the at least one biological difference between men and women. Are really supposed to pretend that we don't?

If it looks like a duck and quacks - it's a bloody duck.