RuPaul's Drag Race

I'm not telling anyone to sod off , but I genuinely don't understand " It's as much a take down of the heteronormative as it is a parody of women." - because if white people were dressing up in "traditional" black or Asian or whatever clothing and hailing it as "as much a celebration of "racionormative" (or being white) as a parody of black people" I think there would be some objection.

So I'm really looking for reasons why one is ok, whereas the other is most definitely not.

Mainstreaming of gay men’s drag means it is obviously vulnerable to crossing into misogyny and genderism both re how it is received and how it is performed.

I don’t think that means gay men’s drag is inherently mysogynistic or a part of genderism.

I think RuPaul himself, and others of his generation would be dismayed by that.

Don’t forget there is a gender based hierarchy in homosexuality, this has been particularly enforced re gay men because for much of history women weren’t even considered people. Which is not to say female homosexuals were not subject to it, simply that gay men have been variously transed or camped up by societal expectations re gender very intensively. In many ways this is worsening again...

can i still post or is being told to "sod off" like a final warning? should I sashay away? NO! Shante I stay!

and yes Battleax - watch Paris is Burning - and stop throwing shade at me. Who made you head girl? ;

I’ll give it a go sloth.

No, I know. I’m not claiming women have been the opressors of gay men. I’m saying it was mocking gender not impersonating women.

I just cannot see it Off. I have tried.

It’s a shame really. I adored Danny Le Rur when I was younger but I can’t unconvlude what I’ve concluded about drag as whole.

Drag Race is definitely rife with misogynistic language but to only focus on that is a vast over simplification IMO.

Watch Paris is Burning if you haven’t already, Battleax. Great insight into the roots of drag. It was originally a class, race, gender revolt.

Has some of that been lost in Drag Race? Of course, it’s a commercial product.

Grip not group (in case you leap on that too).

But gender has been the oppressor of gay men, and drag makes a mockery of it.

frantically trying to guess" and "shocked to be in disagreement" - we get it, you're using "over-emotive language 101" to right your replies.

Oh do get a flipping group. I was just being tongue-in-cheek. It’s just wryly amusing when you suddenly find yourself diametrically opposes to someone you usually agree with fervently.

Sod off and police someone else’s tone.

"frantically trying to guess" and "shocked to be in disagreement" - we get it, you're using "over-emotive language 101" to right your replies.

Using the word "fish" - I dont have any argument with you, i dont like it either.

No-one is tying themselves is knots or has a vested interest (unless offred was wig consultant on season 9) - we say its different because of its roots in gay liberation and you say it isn't.

No, I know. I’m not claiming women have been the opressors of gay men. I’m saying it was mocking gender not impersonating women.

I don't understand the difference; I get other people do and I'd love to know why, exactly, pretending to be black for amusement is offensive, but pretending to be the opposite sex, for amusement, is not offensive.

I have to agree, I genuinely don’t get the difference. I have seen one drag act that was about poking fun at politics etc, and didn’t come across as offensive (it was some years back now!). Any others I’ve seen, and to be honest, there haven’t been many, have seemed to be about making fun of women.

It was never about female liberation, it was specifically gay liberation, but it was GC because gender is oppressive to gay men as well.

I thought this recent story highlighted some interesting points:

www.phillymag.com/g-philly/2018/06/07/aunt-mary-pat-transphobic-win-win-coffee/

(I followed some links and noticed that the drag performer went on to donate to the transpersons crowd funder for laser hair removal)

Women haven’t been the oppressors of gay men.

I think my point is that the valid objections are more about the loss of the history and the translation into the mainstream which means this type of drag is losing it’s meaning both to the audience and increasingly with the performers...

But I don’t think writing off gay men’s drag as inherently misogynistic is fair... That’s my opinion.

I don’t have any vested interest TBH.

I don’t think gay men’s drag (history of a political protest against the oppression of gender and homophobia by an oppressed group) can be seen as equivalent to black face by white performers (a tool of oppression done to further oppression by the oppressors).

Straight man drag is more comparable to black face IMO.

Battleax - its not just drag queens that call women fish, not excusing it but its a gay male-wide phenomenon.

Again, I don’t see that that’s more than an observation. It’s not an argument.

Try it on the black and white minstrel comparator again;

“It’s not just minstrels who call black people “n**r”. Not excusing it but it’s a white community-wide phenomenon.”

AND?!

Maybe not legitimising and televising slurs would be a good start? Or, you know, just a very good thing?

The subversiveness IMO is the use for queens who cross into female impersonation... the misogynistic language when applied to women is applied for not conforming effectively...

Can you imagine this same conversation but about racist language used by white performers in blackface, but how it’s only used satirically and to the less accomplished minstrels?!

I’m frantically trying to guess what your vested interest is here. It seems to me you’re tying yourself in knots to argue the unarguable. Maybe I’m just shocked to be in disagreement with you, IDK.

And I think the mainstreaming means within gay men’s drag itself those using the language are also often actually meaning to say ‘ewww icky women’

There is massive misogyny in the gay community IMO, I don’t necessarily think this is the case in political drag though.

The peppermint thing had real potential to f things up for Ru Paul but he saved himself IMO. And I agree with the critique of pageant queens - when they do the comedy challenges they fall flat...not the makings of a drag superstar.

Battleax - its not just drag queens that call women fish, not excusing it but its a gay male-wide phenomenon.

I’m aware of what the drag race wikia says.

The subversiveness IMO is the use for queens who cross into female impersonation... the misogynistic language when applied to women is applied for not conforming effectively...

I think it’s absolutely fair to level criticism that these things do not translate re the mainstreaming and simply appear to be and actively promote simple misogyny.