RuPaul's Drag Race

Personally, I love drag but I don't think they're trying to be women I think they're trying to be drag queens. I think queens parody femininity and I like that feminity is unlinked to females because of this. But i understand why some women find it offensive - I just don't.

I read this article with Ru Paul and he said he wouldn't allow trans on the show only drag:
www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/mar/03/rupaul-drag-race-big-f-you-to-male-dominated-culture

Having googled it for the link I think he got into trouble for it.

I don't understand the difference; I get other people do and I'd love to know why, exactly, pretending to be black for amusement is offensive, but pretending to be the opposite sex, for amusement, is not offensive.

Me too. I hate and avoid drag. It's offensive IMO but I think a lot of gay men have no interest in or empathy with women.

I love drag race though I think as a rad fem it's probably not the done thing.

I see drag as "performing femininity" and high camp. I don't see it as having much to do with being a woman.

I don't see why men shouldn't be free to perform feminity just as women are.

What is now becoming the norm for women re makeup is edging so close to stage make up of drag queens it is mad!

I think the trends re women are interesting in relation to drag actually! It’s true that they are becoming more and more extreme to the point that drag and women are closer together. I see that, through my lens as outlined before, as how good the satire was in extrapolating re gender performance at it’s extreme.

its not meant to be accurate of women though is it? thats not the point. Its entertainment/parody etc.

and your point about not many born women dressing like that tells me you have never watched an episode of the the kardashians! every bloody make up kit I see these days is for designed for contouring - that is the drag queen cover up makeup method.

I know, I know, I'll sod off now...

Signs are not indicating it is worth investment TBH but I absolutely believe there is a fringe of what I call ‘proper’ drag but that drag race is fast becoming what everyday feminism is to feminism.

Women can therefore totally reject drag for this, they can argue that it is not the best strategy for gay liberation and that allyship re common interests would be better, but they can’t make demands that gay liberation centre women’s concerns.

All we can really do is watch where it is going and decide whether gay liberation is worth investment re our own interests.

I think I was just trying to point out that it is a case of ‘what it has become/is becoming’ rather than ‘look what it is’...

Yeah it’s a legitimate distinction.

RPDR has cornered the market.

It would be wonderful, since I do believe that sexism and homophobia are different sides of the same coin, if there was an alliance but I think it is clear that the general trend is actually going more down the route of retreating into competing special interest groups...

The thing is though, gay liberation does not need to be directly concerned with women’s liberation. When to stop is therefore more about the status of gay men and it does not necessarily matter if women get thrown under the bus.

Drag was GC because of oppressive gender re gay men not because gender is oppressive to women.

Then you get into a discussion re whether it might be more sustainable and effective to dismantle gender itself... but it’s essentially a similar thing to liberal vs radical feminism; taking what you can get for your group within the system or the more difficult fight to dismantle the system and rebuild it.

It’s hard though... drag has always been commercial, it was a way to financially survive, there are anxieties related to that. It was also about being heard, there are anxieties relating to that. It was also about belonging and community and there are anxieties relating to that.

It would not have been easy for RuPaul to keep drag race rooted IMO.

I definitely think, given the genderism stuff and the threat of transing of gay men becoming even more present there is definitely a place for drag.

Drag race is not doing it though and RuPaul was put in his place by genderists when he personally made some GC noises...

I get what you are saying Offred.

I think drag, when it started, was probably a "fuck you" to society which at the time was criminalising "feminine" (ie gay) men.

I think things have changed, and I question whether there is a place for drag of any sort any more. Added to which I think the RUPaul stuff is more anti-women than pro-gay men.

I think I was just trying to point out that it is a case of ‘what it has become/is becoming’ rather than ‘look what it is’... well, that’s certainly how I feel about it anyway!!!

I think I’m distinguishing gay men’s drag from RuPaul’s drag race in many ways TBH, which was perhaps because when I watch it that’s the experience for me. It’s not necessarily something everyone will want to do or should do.

With all things it is appropriate, I think, to say ‘Ok but look what it has become’

And I'm aware I'm becoming a humourless old hag, but fuck it, why shouldn't I? I'm getting old, and although I don't agree with everything Germaine Greer says I'm turning into her.

I like to watch it in part for those very reasons... to observe what is happening as gay men’s drag as it mainstreams and to refer it back to the gay liberation drag.

I'm also not sure that saying "well gay men are oppressed so it's ok for them to mock another oppressed group (women) as a challenge to heterosexual society as a whole". Because for example Muslim people as an oppressed minority couldn't get up on stage with blackened faces and overly exaggerated lips (a la minstrel show) and say "well we are oppressed so we are mocking the society that oppresses us".

It makes no sense to me. It used to, back in the day when I really didn't see how women are routinely the bottom of the pile when it comes to "people who can be made fun of, ignored, dismissed and belittled".

As I've matured I've lost the ability to see the funny side to a lot of things. The rise of the current "I'm a woman because I'm wearing a dress and if you don't like it just suck it up" groups means that I'm even less likely to find men who wear dresses for a joke in any way funny.

I don’t think it is pearl clutchy to not like it. I don’t think it is necessarily even unfair to read drag race as misogynistic.

I can understand battlax!

I think it is deserving of the criticism but I think the reason I still have affection for it is because of my understanding of drag being rooted in the political activism and the gay community before this genderism stuff went so nuts so when I think of drag and what it means to me I think of the gay liberation political activism which was GC political satire as part of a civil rights movement for gay liberation (a genre I love anyway).

When I watch drag race I see it through those eyes in the same way you can’t unsee the things you have seen.

I do think the criticism is valid, I think they are fair criticisms, particularly re drag race. I certainly agree that it may be completely fair to legitimately say that what drag race actually is is misogynistic, internalised homophobia, promoting genderism etc but I’ll probably always see the roots of this type of drag in the gay liberation movement.

Ohh this is interesting. I watched one episode of RPDR on Netflix and I have to say I was put off: it was an episode where they had to decorate little barbie dolls and the winner had chosen to dress her up as a hooker with a black eye and a broken high heel. And the constant talk of fish etc.

I’ve got to say I did find it misogynistic and even googled afterwards “RPDR misogyny” but was surprised to see that much. Maybe it was the wrong episode to watch for the first time and I’m being a bit pearl clutchy?