I cannot believe that Mumsnet - a parenting site!! - agrees with the following:

The wrong body discription is wrong it was a. Short hand in a time when people knew nothing. About us and we didn't want to sit there and explain it to people. I wish we had never used it as it does not discribe our experiance very well and if often misleading the reality is. Often more. Complex and I can only compare it to that annoying warming light on ya dashboard that you can never get to turn off. But know. One day your car will break

Also on the feel like a woman thing which is a whole thread in itself. I don't feel like a woman in the sense I can say that's what a woman is nailed it. I needed to be on hormones and get surgery to stop the voice in my head that kept telling me all my life that something was wrong. This was not my first course of action I tried may others to stop it but this is the only one that worked for me

In my long life I have probably only come across half a dozen people who have genuinely been born in the wrong body. One is our best friend. I don’t believe for one minute there are several children in every school. Ffs David Bowie and others flirted with this years ago, rock music is full of people who like to mix it up, but stay true to who they are. Let them grow up and then decide. Unless there is another agenda altogether going on

You are totally right about that and the people that work with trans young people never tell they can and young trans people are also very aware that they can not do that either. There are a lot. Of misconceptions about.what the actual treatment of trans kid is and it really is a watch and wait approch in a positive and supportive way. It is slow and is often frustrating for young people and there families hence mermaids campaigning for faster treatment. Because when you meet a young trans person who this is who they are it does become very apparent this is what they need. When you meet young people who are working it out and maybe it is not the whole answer that is. Often apparent too.

Hi Sunkisses can I just ask do you think trans people exist. And there is such a thing as being transgendered at least in. Adults or do you think we are all wrong in our belief?

Of course transpeople exist.

‘Wrong in our belief’ - in what sense? I believe you believe it, if that makes sense. I know that the belief is there that a person is ‘the wrong sex.’ That must be very distressing and disturbing for that person.

The problem is how to manage this.

Because when you ask and probe ‘why do you (the generic you) feel you’re a woman?’ The answer is never defined. People say they feel like they’re a woman - but how do women feel? They say they know they’re a woman - but how? When you break it down it comes down to stereotypes. I dont think think there’s a set of feelings that are unique to being a woman. What there are are two things:

1. Societal stereotypes that are attached to ‘women’
2. The sexed body -ie female biology.

The first, well that is something that changes over time and culture. And a man can do any of those stereotyped behaviours, it still doesn’t make him a woman, but I think men should be as free as women to wear/ act/whatever those stereotypes. Stereotypes are crap - they harm men and women.

The second and really the only thing that ‘makes a woman’ is biology. And that’s where you run into the wall - people cannot change sex, so where do you go from there? Nobody can change sex.

Telling a child they are the wrong sex is wrong. It’s pushing crap narrow gender stereotypes that damage us all. A girl is a girl, because of her biology, regardless of what she likes, her hair, her clothes or her toy preferences. She’s a girl. I loved dinosaurs, space, lego, chemistry sets and had a loathing of pink. Hated dresses, just wanted to climb trees and resented being told to sit nicely etc. The thought of what some people might encourage me to do with that now I find very disturbing indeed - because I am a woman, and girls don’t need to like pink, they can do all those things I did and it’s totaly fine (I can’t even believe i have to make that point in 2018, I find it quite shocking.)

Telling a child they can change sex is wrong, factually. They can’t.
Putting a child on powerful harmful drugs that are untested in children and being used off label, when those drugs set that child on an irreversible pathway to futures sterility and surgery? That’s IS wrong.

So yes of course transgender people exist.
Their belief is real to them
But like all beliefs, it’s a belief. Nobody can change sex.

Hi Sunkisses can I just ask do you think trans people exist. And there is such a thing as being transgendered at least in. Adults or do you think we are all wrong in our belief? If you don't beleive that which on here is a possiblity then I can understand why you would also think that it does not exsist in Children too but if you are ok with adults being trans then guess what we used to be children too and many of us knew we were trans back then too and would have loved to live in a world. Where we could have to confidance to come out and actually be taken seriously and helped young people are not stupid they will not say something if they think you are not going to help them they just close up so all you would do is stop them coming out until they were grown up this is a damaging approach for young people

I lurk on MN for useful discussions on this issue (I have preteen kids) but also other issues. I am amazed MNHQ haven't been on to this thread to clarify what was wrong with the @BadGirls OP that they banned. Maybe it is the words 'child abuse' because it conjures up images of sexual abuse, or battering children? I would say that the use of untested, off-label cancer drugs that have very serious harmful side effects on children is irresponsible and reckless. I'd also say that if it is done because of a belief in an unproven, unscientific and sexist ideology that 'sexed brains can be born in the wrong sex body', then that would be extremely worrying cult-like behaviour, and that is a safeguarding issue. Put those together - irresponsible, reckless and damaging treatment of a child due to extremely worrying cult-like behaviour - and you can see why so many are concerned about this and are raising the alarm bells. In any other area it would be rightly called 'child abuse'. Why not this area?

For children that persistently claim they are the opposite sex then they need to be helped to understand that there are many ways to be a boy or a girl - or an effeminate boy or masculine girl - and need 100% support in that, not being told they are the 'wrong sex' (which would simply reinforce all those sexist stereotypes, and teach them something that is unscientific, irrational and not true).

I’m assuming the reference to conversion therapy is in the light of the proposed law change announced today to make gay conversion therapy illegal?

GAy conversion therapy isn’t illegal in the UK (I was surprised I have to say) but campaigners are trying to get gender pit in there too.

This would a grave mistake. Firstly it will setup a conflict as described in the example of the future autistic lesbian young woman above

Secondly it would make it illegal to refuse children damaging puberty blockers - that’s a dangerous road to go down.

but what if the child still insists they are (or feel they should have been) the opposite sex? Conversion therapy until they desist?

Conversion therapy? No, I wouldn’t say that at all. Supportive therapy, watch and wait, exploration of coexisting disorders.

Indeed you can argue that affirmative treatment IS conversion therapy - how could one for example reconcile what might be at a later stage a lesbian autistic young person with telling them they’re a straight boy? These are children, they don’t have a mature orientation yet. That’s conversion therapy. It’s only when the adult stage is reached that one can assess a person properly.

Watch, support, wait is the only ethical treatment for minors. The affirmative irreversible pathway is too invasive and damaging.

Your use of "conversion therapy" reveals your agenda, Poula.

Bowl. That's all fine and dandy. I actually agree one should try to explain biology, gender, societal expectation etc., but what if the child still insists they are (or feel they should have been) the opposite sex? Conversion therapy until they desist?

GenderApostate
You have told us what you think of those who seek to treat gender incongruent children... however you didn't answer when asked what those should be done. Or are you relying on others to answer for you? It's OK to say you don't know... none of us have all the answers.

What a lovely clear description, Bowl. Par for the course, though.

By non affirmative I mean one does not tell for example a born female child who thinks they are born in the wrong body that they are correct. Nor would one tell a child they can change sex. To go along with the idea that they are the wrong sex is affirmative.

Both of the above are biologically incorrect - humans cannot change sex.

Instead I personally think an exploration (age appropriate of course) with the child about WHY and from WHERE these feelings come is appropriate. So (age appropriate) talks about society - how society has these narrow stereotypes. How women are socialised to behave and dress and present a certain way. How the child does not and why that is absolutely OK and normal and does not mean there is anything wrong with them at all.

Obviously how this is done is very dependent on the age and capacity of the child. You can have a fairly in depth chat about oppression with a teen, less so with a preteen.

I’d also stress looking at co existing disorders and conditions - autism, depression, anxiety etc. Puberty is stressful and quite horrendous for a lot of children as it is - to be coming of age in a world where girls are expected to behave in such a narrow way and in such a porn soaked society is really toxic for many kids. Several autistic posters on here have made some very insightful posts about feeling they didn’t fit ‘the rules’ for what a girl ‘should’ be and thus would have been vulnerable to someone telling them they were a boy.

It’s a complex situation. I have huge sympathy for both parents and children. I’m also firmly, passionately opposed to doing anything irreversible (which includes puberty blockers) to any minor.

Thanks Prawn and Bowl.

You don’t treat people with anorexia by allowing them to starve or give self harmers razor blades.

Thanks for the comprehensive replies. Bowl could you possibly please explain what you mean by "non affirmative"?

Posted too soon. Even if they didn't desist, medical treatment that permanently sterilizes children is unethical. The drugs given have appalling side effects and are being used off label. From the medical ethics POV, anything but a wait and see policy would be inexcusable.

By following the evidence based path of "watch and wait" as recommended by the NHS, Poula.

As 80% of such children desist, medical treatment is obviously unethical.

What would do you think parents of persistently trans identified children should do to help their children? How should health services respond?

It’s very difficult for parents. The vast, vast majority want the best for their kids and are just doing what they feel is best. As we all do for our children. Without impartial and full information that is difficult for a parent to do.

How should services respond? Psychological support (as intensive as needed) aimed at non affirmative non irreversible treatment.
Assessment and Treatment for co morbid conditions. Assessment for co existing disorders. There’s a lot of overlap in this population with autistic traits and depression/anxiety.

Basically a big support package, focusing on the child. However, NOTHING irreversible should be done. Puberty blockers are awful drugs with irreversible side effects and there’s also a big danger that this sets children on a pathway that they have no exit ramp from. It’s crucial that kids explore the roots of their feelings - I am absolutely not surprised at all that so many rebel and reject our gender stereotypes. They are hypersexualised and narrowing by the year - the answer to ‘I don’t act like a girl’ is not ‘you’re a boy’ it’s that society’s idea of what a girl can do or be is too narrow.

Puberty blockers are also actively contra indicated in children with any mental health issues.

It’s a difficult path for parents to tread and they need intensive support too.

GenderApostate

I have been deleted for calling the use off off label, unresearched drugs, child abuse.
Poisoning healthy kids with cancer drugs and removing healthy body parts is ABUSE.
The people promoting this kind of treatment and suicide ideation are ABUSERS with a terrible agenda.
Ban me, I don’t fucking care any more. I’m perfectly happy with being on the ‘wrong side of history’ when the ‘right’ side involves Eugenics.

What would do you think parents of persistently trans identified children should do to help their children? How should health services respond?

Will do, Amalfi.

Prawnofthepatriarchy

If she pms you, or if she's reading us, please pass on my regards and thank her for me. I often think of her and her child and wonder what happened.

I hope they are OK

Amalfi, I don't want to breach any confidences. She's still around at times though often changes username. She PM'd me a year or so back, saying the support she'd had from posters here had been life changing for her and her DC. I have immense respect for her devotion to her child.

Prawnofthepatriarchy

I remember that mother. It was her who helped #peakyrans me. Whatever happened to her?

That 2016 case, as I said at the time, together with giving false statistics should have seen mermaids struck off all public purse funds it receives.