I cannot believe that Mumsnet - a parenting site!! - agrees with the following:

garam do you support the use of;

Affirmative treatment
puberty blockers
Cross sex hormones
Surgery
... in minors?

*There is a reason at 3/4 of The young people leave the Tavistock without transitioning

If that figure is correct then that’s a powerful argument for watch and wait.*

GC- children are being forced through affirmation when they are not trans....

Trans- NO they are not, they are carefully assessed before treatment, and the latest diagnostic criteria separates trans kids from GNC.

Evidence- trans are right.

I. Hope that reassures you some what

I wish it did. But while that may be the preferred approach it’s not what this small group of vocal activists is pressing for. There are groups actively pushing blockers on these children. There are countless social media persons pushing direct engagement, the other day someone posted a link to an organisation which pushed buying blockers directly over the web and encouraged children to do this in the absence of parental knowledge.

This is the social media climate that’s worrying - it’s feeding a very irresponsible climate of pushing children down an irreversible path.

Those groups pushing blockers and affirmative treatment are marketing this approach to schools, the police and various organisations which have a safeguarding duty. one group at least advocates confidential disclosure which is seen in safeguarding circles as basically an abusers charter.

It’s extremely worrying. So unfortunately no I’m not reassured. It’s a disaster unfolding in front of us.

Thanks for highlighting that LangCleg

Missed the reference first time Round bowl though would expect nothing else from someone with that user name lol

And that process has taken me decades. What chance does an immature teen have?

Not a whelk’s chance in a supernova, that’s what.

This! This! This!

The thing that young people what when you ask them is to be believed and listened too. They want to feel. Supported in there exploration of who they are and if that leads to them considering treatment or transition then we would support them in. Making those decisions safely while having. All. The information to. Make those choices.

Yep that figure is correct and why the appoch is on the whole a.watch and wait one.with positive Support the young. People for.who transition. Is right tend to be very certain.the others also.tend to work it out too there is no.treatment of children without a period of watching and waiting. I. Hope that reassures you some what

There is a reason at 3/4 of The young people leave the Tavistock without transitioning

If that figure is correct then that’s a powerful argument for watch and wait.

I don't. Disagree bowl that young people don't fully understand what being trans is its. Taken me. Decades to have a better unstanding of it. But in. All those. Years I have never. Doubted I was not trans have I. Sometimes wished I was not yes have I tried to be other things totally but I am trans. There is a reason at 3/4 of The young people leave the Tavistock without transitioning

My mum grew my hair as everyone thought I was a boy. I wore my brothers old clothes and was always tagging along. I spent most of my childhood digging in mud and climbing trees. I still dig and climb but call it gardening. My favor books were where the female character dressed as a boy and had the freedom to do what they wanted. Another gen x.

Your last made me think of some thing trivial, the long hair. It used to be so normal to have short hair. You just don't see it now.

My tween niece has never had hair shorter than her shoulders and I hope it's because that's genuinely her preference and not because of social pressure, but how would you even isolate that in a kid of that age?

You are so right - it is all to do with isolating those stereotypes as it is easier to market to people conforming to type.

And that process has taken me decades. What chance does an immature teen have?

Not a whelk’s chance in a supernova, that’s what.

The thing is, bespin that I’ve experienced what it’s like to be GNC.

I am finally unpacking what that means, and looking back I think my initial feminism, which was more liberal, was a response to that.

I was so sick of being told (not by my parents but by society) that this is what girls do because I didn’t want those things. I wanted to wear whatever and be free of those expectations. So I rejected a lot of ‘feminine things.’

But now when I look back I see that that was in itself informed by misogyny. I didn’t want kids because I didn’t want to be a housewife I wanted to be a scientist and society told me that housewives was a ‘lesser’ option. So I rejected it.

But now I see that being a sahm is just as valid an option as any and I feel retrospectively rather ashamed for how I felt, because those thoughts were misogynistic culture shaping me.

And through it all, god I’d have been vulnerable to all this grooming i think - be a boy! Reject the feminine! Yes I can see how kids want that. It’s not better care, it’s toxic societal expectations being exploited by adults in a narrow and sexualised and misogynistic climate.

Bowl I agree with a lot of the discription of modern culture as it sounds like we are about the same age. But having been on the outside of what people consider to be the norm most of my life there Was definitely a way to be that did not get.ya beaten up. Back in the 80s too. Though I do feel that there seemed to be a lot. More expression back.then.

I think you are doing what a lot.of us do with young people and place our upbringing on to there's.

And it’s that conformity that gets me now

Is one they hear a lot and I know I am. Sometimes guilty of. It too and have often been told off for. Assuming things about there culture just. Like. I. Did to my parents. I think. Some of the pressures are emence now on them. But the opertunities are also far higher would I want to grow up trans now is often a question young people have asked me and while it would be easy to say yes I'm not sure i really would

I had short (and long and everything in between) hair as a teen. It felt so much freer then. Now all the teen girls I see have the same look - it’s vanishingly rare I see one with short hair, or different clothing.

And puberty is bad enough as it is. I remember the sudden ‘men are now leering at me wtf?’ Thing and it’s awful. Add in social media, the ubiquitous photographing of everything and I feel so sorry for teens now. It’s a toxic environment and rejecting the sexed body seems a fairly rational response to that pressure.

I’m a gen X and I think probably the last generation to grow to adulthood without the mobile tech and internet. While all that is fabulous in many ways it’s also troubling in others.

The need for people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes to be accepted is important - transpeople have always been around and society needs to be more tolerant of them in general.

I do believe that they have been / are being used by a small vocal and quite unpleasant group of people who are using this as effectively a men’s sexual rights movement. Breaking down the boundaries we have been trying to give young people to keep them safe, removing women’s safe spaces etc. It’s all moving towards women being pushed back out of the public sphere lest they become public sexual property and degrading children’s safeguarding and boundaries.

I need to stress very very clearly that this is not what the majority of law abiding transpeople are pushing for - transpeople should have protection as they do in law and society should be more tolerant of those who don’t conform.

My tween niece has never had hair shorter than her shoulders and I hope it's because that's genuinely her preference and not because of social pressure, but how would you even isolate that in a kid of that age?

Pass the popcorn then AngryAttackKittens no one. Said to bring. Snacks. Bare with me I'm on. My phone and I'm a little busy also but I will get there.

Bowl your posts are excellent.

Your last made me think of some thing trivial, the long hair. It used to be so normal to have short hair. You just don't see it now.

(Pulls up chair, passes round tub of popcorn.)

No this generation has grown up in a very different way even to mine. Vastly different socialisation. Different pressures

I had: no social media telling me that girl= sexy long swishy hair, pouty nude/semi nice selfies
No social media telling me what to wear, buy or do
No social media on 24/7 to police my words and behaviour.
Far, far more relaxed gender stereotypes- I don’t know how old you are but I cannot even begin to tell you how NARROW these are now compared to when I grew up in the 80s. EVERYTHING was different. Kids generally wore bright coloured hard wearing stuff that wasn’t gendered because we were too poor not to pass it down to siblings of either sex. There was No princess culture. None at all. Kids just played with toys. I’m fairly horrified at how kids are gendered from birth these days. I think it’s toxic

There was no porn culture. There was porn but it was hard-copy. Mags and videos only. It was seen as fairly seedy and shameful. It needed a trip to a shop to buy. It wasn’t woven through media and society like itvis now.
Again I don’t know how old you are but the difference there is huge. The change in the sexual climate is very noticeable - look at all the threads on here with young people being expected to do anal/choking atcthe start of a relationship. That’s been normalised by porn - what was once something restricted to an adult, consenting relationship (in which adults can do whatever they please just so I’m clear on that) is now first shag stuff. That’s toxic too.

The media and pop music is different. As a kid in the 80s you saw straight men in makeup all the time (Bowie, the cure) - and it was totally normal! They weren’t trans. They were just dressing up and pushing boundaries and it was great. Girls could wear and look so many more different ways, short or long hair, make up, goths, the tail end of punk (although it was the tail end for me) indie kids, whatever. So much less conformist.

And it’s that conformity that gets me now - that’s so obvious. There is one way to be a girl. That’s a headband and pink fucking frills on a baby, then princess culture, then the single teen look (long hair, cake day on makeup, pouty.) and if you don’t that, you’re a boy!

Well fuck that. Fuck it. Girls can be whatever they want, wear trousers and be a mechanic. Boys can wear dresses and play with dolls and be caring and feminine. The stereotypes are so so narrow these days

So no, I don’t think this generation ‘has better access to care’

I think they’re growing up in a highly sexualised, highly toxic, highly stereotyped society.

And I also think they are being preyed on by a small but disproportionately influential set of people who have hijacked the (totally Laudable) aim of getting transpeople accepted in society.

Bowlofbabelfish

I think.you see mental health in a very Stright forward way and while. Your definition of affermative treatment is not used. We do. Infact treat a lot of mental illness in a positive approach see cbt and other cognitive therapies. As with most of the general public it is not a easy thing to understand if you are not in it and we are trying hard to change this perseption that it is not Normal to feel like this there is no normal and un normal. Its just numbers of people.

I'm not trying to gotcha I'm not noel edmonds but where do you think we all come from we all keep telling you we knew when we where children what. Makes you think. This generation is any diffent to ours but just as better access to services

I do not share my Christian friend’s beliefs. (She’s an evangelical, I’m an atheist)

I’m well aware she exists - I’ve had many a scone in John Lewis cafe with her and I’m fairly sure she manifests on the corporeal plane.

Well said Bowl! Year after year, despite careful explanations, transgender advocates pretend that the fact that we do not share their beliefs means we do not think they exist.
This is not the 'gotcha' they seem to think it is. As Bowl just demonstrated.

needed to be on hormones and get surgery to stop the voice in my head that kept telling me all my life that something was wrong.

That sounds extremely challenging to live with.

At the same time many, many people live with that warming light. For anxiety, depression, dissociative disorders, other dysmorphic disorders and a multitude of others.
For them, it may or may not go away but the treatment route is never affirmative.

Here’s an example: Roughly 10% of the population who are perfectly normal and have no psychiatric illness hear voices in their heads. How do we treat this? We don’t tell them it’s real. We tell them that 10% of totally normal people blah blah... because a LOT of those patients are really freaked out it means they’re crazy and of course they aren’t.

I’d say a fair proportion of the population feels some sort of warning light. Our society is plagued with anxiety and similar type illnesses. It’s part of the human condition.

No other type however gets affirmative treatment. Why does this one?

Excellent post Bowlofbabelfish