Schoolgirls successfully challenge imposition of all gender neutral toilets

Very good to hear that, well done that girl and her mum.

Great, will have a look

I saw it for the first time today Lemon
Have started a separate thread about this.

Wow that’s very useful for some work I’m doing enough, thanks so much for posting.

Well this is useful!!!
The government have just issued guidance on 'Gender Separation in Mixed Schools'.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf

Some very useful and clear information. I would draw your attention to para 13 and the use of the word must.

It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must* be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within
the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010. With regards to boarding accommodation, Schedule 23 of the Equality Act 2010 allows for separation by sex providing the same standard of accommodation is provided for both boys and girls*

Fantastic, inspiring work! A dedicated third space is an ideal solution. Congratulations to those tenacious girls.

I write that as an adult woman whose workplace permits male-bodied people who identify as women to use our (completely unadapted) women’s toilets. Our privacy and dignity as female colleagues while using the women’s toilets is not even on the radar.

This is why I think y'all are over reacting a little on the transgender kids 'taking over' disabled toilets.

The point is that there is only a small number of children who are identifying as dysphoric and receiving medical treatment, yet anecdotal evidence so far is that schools are receiving regular requests that trans-identified children be able to access a sex segregated space that doesn't align to their natal sex. The two do not reconcile - which suggests that "feelings" (I feel like a boy/girl therefore I need to use their spaces) are being prioritised over "evidence" (I identify as a boy/girl and am receiving medical treatment to transition).

There is a greater likelihood of a school having a disabled child within its student body, than a trans child. - bear in mind my comments about not including children with ASD in the calculation, which would significantly inflate the percentage as it's common that many of them would need access to a disabled loo as well.

Therefore it would be inappropriate to prioritise a trans child over a disabled one; if schools are sufficiently concerned to want to make provision for trans children then they should be building third spaces for them.

It would appear therefore that there is a massive fear of upsetting a vocal and current movement, alongside a fear of being seen to discriminate against a minority group. Turning disabled loos into trans spaces is unfair unless the trans child is also disabled - as they don't need wheelchair space, grab rails, accessible basins etc. It feels very much like a quick and cheap win for schools but as a previous poster pointed out earlier in the thread, yet again it places disabled children at the bottom of the list.

Maybe, Snappity, but lots of people aren't. And most school loos are vile enough without the added stress of making them mixed sex.

I think those figures also underestimate the numbers of gender-questioning children in some schools.

My daughter's school year has at least two (that she knows of); at least back in Year 9 when they were friendly with DD, they had not been referred to the Tavistock but were already changing separately.

I do not like the idea of gender neutral toilets and would not use them unless they are floor to ceiling walls/doors.

Like is the operative word I think. Having travelled extensively, I am much more relaxed.

I think you are significantly underestimating the number of disabled children in schools.

I do not like the idea of gender neutral toilets and would not use them unless they are floor to ceiling walls/doors.

Cubicles - no way.

The problem is that I am a middle class, assertive woman and, if this becomes endemic, women like me can ‘buy our way out’ by lobbying service providers, by using private sports clubs and/or private medicine.

It will affect poorer or more vulnerable women the most.

Well done, that girl.

Slightly OT, but what school sports does a transgender pupil take part in? Are the girls who are transitioning compelled to do rugby or football like the male students or (like the changing facilities) are they given a free pass and allowed to do what they're 'comfortable' with? I don't remember joining in team sports being optional in my day, but maybe things have changed.

What a fantastic girl. Good on her.

I note that the girls' main objection - correctly IMO - was to boys taking unisex opportunities to harass girls. Not to a tiny number of dysphoric trans pupils needing accommodation.

I can imagine that disabled people would support the use off disabled toilets if it was limited to people with a diagnosed MH condition that prevented them using toilets of their sex. But of course it won't be. So disabled toilets are not the solution. It's not helpful for schools to create a sense of entitlement to disabled facilities in kids who are not disabled.

Great article. It's written in a very neutral tone that you'd have to pretty hardline to disagree with - this is exactly the kind of stuff we want out there - calm, sensible explanation of why this is a problem that really can't be accused of transphobia (at least by anyone rational ...)

In other words the EHRC do not even entertain the idea that the trans young person would be in with the girls in their changing room.

One male bodied person in the female toilets renders them unisex. Small numbers can have a aignificant impact. Even the idea that there could be a male bodied person in the toilet will be enough for some girls to self exclude.

you could for example allow a transgender student to use the girls change rooms AFTER the girls have left

Have you read the Scottish schools guidance? It recommends that it is girls (that object to having a transgirl in their changing room) who should wait and get changed AFTER the transgender young person is done.

You are right, there are many work around involving the creation of third spaces, which happen to also be the recommendations in the Technical Guidance for Schools in Scotland (guidance to the provisions in the EqA2010 and published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission)
I quote;

A school fails to provide appropriate changing facilities for a transgender young person and insists that the pupil use the boys changing room even though she is now living as a girl. This could be indirect gender reassignment discrimination unless it can be objectively justified. A suitable alternative might be to allow the pupil to use private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space

"Based on the above, that equates to 0.7 disabled children per school and 0.1 trans children per school."

This is why I think y'all are over reacting a little on the transgender kids 'taking over' disabled toilets.

At many schools there are disabled accessible toilets and NO disabled kids. They're built in advance in preparation for when a disabled kid does come through the school but are not actually needed regularly for their intended use. On your statistics a bit over half of all schools have a kid with a significant disability.

At large schools which have many disabled kids there would likely be several accessible toilets (and if not, we need to build them!)

There are more and more kids identifying as queer, non-binary, or neutral, but the number who are identifying as transgender to the extent that they demand access to seperate facilities remains pretty small, so small that only 1 in 10 schools has even one student.

In schools where there aren't disabled kids, or where there are plenty of disabled accessible facilities, is there really harm in allowing the transgender child to use them too?

In cases where there are many transgender kids and few facilities, such that allowing those kids to use the disabled stall is likely to disadvantage kids with genuine disabilities, other options could be made available for the trans kids, i.e. the staff toilet or a portable toilet could be hired temporarily until an extra stall can be built.

Obviously the needs of the kids those facilities are built for (girls, and disabled kids) should be prioritized, but at the same time you could for example allow a transgender student to use the girls change rooms AFTER the girls have left without compromising anyone's rights. You could let them use a disabled neutral stall AFTER the kid with a genuine disability is finished without harm too. Or use the other disabled neutral stall on a campus which has more than one toilet block.

Long term we should build additional sex neutral single stalls but I think this whole transgender thing is going to be a passing fad that a decade from now will seem ridiculous, so we should make them accessible too so that they will still be useful. So that still means you would have transkids using disabled/neutral accessible stalls just that there would be more of them.

spontaneousgiventime Thank you on behalf of my little granddaughter for finding that out. And for your persistence on another thread.
NEVER piss off a gran!

I agree that disabled loos should not be co-opted - there is very poor provision already. I suppose the school's thinking was that the disabled loo is "gender neutral" already - as it's not common to see single sex disabled loos. However I agree with the comments saying that an additional loo or two for "everyone" should have been added, rather than putting disabled students to the bottom of the priority list.

• According to the Tavistock Centre, they received 2,016 child referrals in 2016-17. There were 8.67m school-age children in education in England in 2017*

• According to the Govt statistics on SEN in 2017, those with visual, multi-sensory and physical disabilities comprised 17,680 of the school-aged children population in England. There were 24,281 schools in England**

• Based on the above, that equates to 0.7 disabled children per school and 0.1 trans children per school.

There's some fairly blunt instrument maths (including assuming all of the Tavistock referrals were for children domiciled in England) and assumptions going on - but hopefully this still serves to illustrate that there are more disabled children in the school population than those who identify as trans. I've based "identifying" as being sufficiently convinced that they are seeking to genuinely explore transition (by way of medical referral), on the basis that not seeking a medical intervention would not support the argument of being "in danger" by using the toilets aligned to their natal sex.

Therefore on the basis that the school-age trans population is a tiny fraction of the children with disabilities who would have cause to need a disabled loo because they wouldn't be able to use an ordinary one, it's not fair or appropriate to co-opt disabled toilets for gender equality ideology. The numbers on disabilities also don't take into account hidden disabilities such as children with ASD who may also need to use disabled toilets.

*Gov.uk website - stats from 2017
** This figure is slightly skewed as it includes nursery schools, where it would be reasonable to assume that there would be no need for trans-inclusive provision for children.

Oh wow.... is the tide turning?

Do I dare hope??? The more common-sense articles of ordinary people's thoughts like this appear - of everyday heroes enabling those without a voice to be heard, the better.... So great that her daughter has learnt about the power of activism so young (but shocking that her school went unisex wholesale, without thinking of the challenges of pubescent girls).

Bloody brilliant.

'Police say, safeguarding first - always.'

I would bloody well hope so too! Good to have it confirmed

enoughisenough
Are you talking about the Pedophile Information Exchange?

Thank goodness the government saw sense then. And now.