Diva magazine is trans inclusive

I’m going out now, but would be interested to know what you think re Lib Dem LGBT twitter daim.

Do they genuinely believe what they wrote, or have they not thought it through properly, or do they disagree somehow with the kind of example I’ve given, or are they are just being disingenuous/ goady?

Yes thanks daim

Why do you reckon the Lib Dem LGBT Twitter has said that the GRA won’t have an impact on the Equality Act when we’ve just seen that it will?

Cheers Daim.

I've heard people say here and elsewhere that on a case by case basis, under the EA, the bar would be higher to exclude as a "proportionate" means of achieving a legitimate aim if the person had a GRC. And if they had sex reassignment surgery as well it would be almost impossible. So Daim and LGBT Lib Dems are either confused or disingenuous. Because the EA exemptions depend on a subjective test.

I believe trans people are protected whatever stage they are in the gender reassignment process.

Yes I quite agree they are protected, however being protected against discrimination doesn’t mean that the single sex exemptions don’t apply to them?

From the twitter account you linked it says:

The best we can work out is that the people doing the protests seem to think that the Gender Recognition Act has some provision that changes how the Equality Act sees you.

But it doesn’t. It really, really doesn’t. They made that up.

I think Bespins NHS example above, with employee A and B, shows that changes to the GRA do change how you are ‘seen’ in regards to the EqA.

Would you agree daim?

I can see how having a GRC would strengthen a case for discrimination though.

Then you are contradicting yourself aren't you? If it is taken more seriously in a discrimination case it does "make a difference legally"

Yes quite goady!

I do agree with it though that the Equality Act and self ID are two different things, but I don’t think anyone has ever argued that they aren’t?

What I’m saying is that they interact with each other.

So, using Bespins example we have the NHS which has 2 transwomen employees. Employee A has a GRC and has therefore lived for at least 2 yeas as a woman, has a diagnosis of gender disphoria and most likely has had some form of hormonal/ surgical treatment for this. Employee B on the other hand does not hold a GRC. Employee B is just at the beginning of their transition and has only changed name and pronouns.

At the moment, as Bespin has stated, if a female patient requests a female nurse, the NHS would apply the exemptions with regard to employee B, but not with employee A. As far as the NHS is concerned, employee A is female and the NHS can’t ask to see a GRC.

So then self ID comes into law. Employee B, who has no gender dysphoria diagnosis, has made no steps towards transitioning other than a name change applies applies for and is granted a GRC.

Before self ID: NHS would apply exemptions to employee B

After self ID: NHS would not apply exemptions to employee B.

Would you agree with my reasoning about how self ID and the EqA interact daim?

Why don't you answer the question Daim? No one wants to read their nasty misogynistic shite.

The aim of the exemptions is to allow organisations to use them. Should they be needed were it is felt no suitable alternative can be found what I am saying is that usually a suitable alternative is found that does not require them to be used so in the case of an employee they would have to want to make the employer use them and not wish to seek alternatives but insist that they do this work. All hr and legal teams that I have talked too are aware or if they are not are very quickly aware that these exemptions exsist as the nhs and that intermate care area is one of the reason these exemptions exsist.

I understand that Bespin, I was asking about how the exemptions were used in practice.

I’m not talking about individual NHS employees who I’m sure are very professional.

I want to know about organisations that make use of the exemptions as I haven’t heard much about them- I’ve mostly heard about orgs that don’t use them.

You mentioned the NHS as one, so that’s why I have been asking about their policies. In your first post you said the NHS ‘routinely’ uses the exemptions. But now you say that the NHS does not usually apply the exemptions?

Lemon Jello I have given examples in the past where as a health care professional I and my colleagues have been mindful of the impact of being trans may have an a individual service user or family. As do all my colleagues in relation to there. Personal characteristics like my manager last week not being able to work with someone as she as blonde hair. The nhs does not usually apply the exemptions as it does not need to use them and very few cases require it for employees as part of being a health care professional is understanding and reflecting on your impact on the care you are giving. If you are unable to do that then chances are you will not be working in the nhs for long. I suspect there maybe times when someone as wanted to test it but as I said it would be mostly confidential as it's a hr matter and people are intitled to privacy in relation to this

Thanks Bespin and daimbars

So we have one example of an organisation using the exemptions- the NHS, but it seems from what Bespin has said, they don’t apply these exemptions when a GRC is involved as they are legally entitled to in EqA. This is perhaps partly because it is illegal for them to ask about a GRC so using the exemptions in these circs is pretty unworkable for them?

Therefore, daimbars, would you agree that the process by which people are awarded GRCa is pretty relevant in this example?

Been reading on and off, when and as, during the working day.

Still saying:

No penis in spaces reserved for women and girls. For reasons of safeguarding and privacy and dignity and autonomy, etc etc. for women and girls.

I have to say, though - for involuntarily spitting water all over my laptop and laughing happily this morning -

FireFartingDuck Thu 28-Jun-18 00:15:55 (back on Page 13):

All the "If you prick us, do we not bleed?" stuff is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is the "If you have a prick, no entry" stuff.

Wonderful wit and use of words! Love it!

But surely if the NHS doesn’t apply the EqA exemptions to people with GRCs then it is very relevant as to how people get those GRCs in the first place?

This is the crux of the problem. The risk averseness comes partly from not being able to ask people if they have a GRC. So fuck that, it's unworkable for women having and continuing to have rights to dignity and privacy and it needs to change.

The answer is yes, Lemon.

Again I don't know the answer to that one sorry the nhs is not one thing as I said its a number of individual organisations that is managed and supervised by NHS England the individual employment policies are ccg based. The gra does not allow. You to ask someone if they have a GRC and if you have a female birth certificate how. Can the ccg show you are not legally. Female so. They can not ask you if you are or prevent you from doing things that are single sex to bar to not do this is very high though I'm. Not sure how. Much It as been ever tested as I don't know of anyone in these positions who as ever. Wanted to challenge them as I said this is usually done in claberation with people if you know of cases where a trans person as challenged the exception then please enlighten me. The talk on. Here that it can be used for all sorts of things as no basis in fact though I suppose there is nothing in people challenging where the bar is set but the act does indicate it is set quite high. If this consultation was addressing the equality. Act then maybe this would be something that would be needed to be looked at to. Give more. Clarity

Going to bed now but will check back tomorrow. Thanks for your help

Ok so the exemptions in the EqA can still exclude people with GRC’s but the NHS don’t use the exemptions to do this? So a transwoman with a GRC would be fine to perform intimate care on a woman who has requested a female nurse? I know the patient could refuse this, I’m just interested from a policy point of view.

This is pretty important as Daim was saying that the EqA and selfID are two different things and don’t affect each other. But surely if the NHS doesn’t apply the EqA exemptions to people with GRCs then it is very relevant as to how people get those GRCs in the first place?

Any patent can request not to have care delivered by someone no care is undertaken if someone does not want it too unless they lack capacity and its in there best interests or they are under section of the mental health act. Again I have no idea what each ccg does in relation to this or how they approach it the nhs is not one thing in reality it's more like a brand name these days. If someone as a grc then this exception does not apply as the person is legally the gender they present if someone already as a grc you can not ask if they have but can request a birth certificate but again only if that is something you wohld ask anyone else for. I hope this makes sence sense organisations have used this exeption since the equality act came in. I know this because it was used on me with my collaboration in it at the time. It is not usually discussed as it is a hr matter and therefore the employee as the right to privacy in these matters