Diva magazine is trans inclusive

Sorry to all those who don't like images instead of words (well, it's a word!)

I like your image!

I am always impressed by the audacity of the claim that one can mature to adulthood in such a cloistered environment that one is unaware that male violence exists in the world.
Ignorance is a choice.

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known. Every human being in the world has been touched by it.

It's like living with a tedious teenager.
No
ah but...
Nope
what if
NO
You're soo mean... you don't understand me
It's still NO

Exactly Angry

Again. No.

Sorry to all those who don't like images instead of words (well, it's a word!)

Again, I'm not sure how many different ways we can say "no" that haven't been said already. No, it is not the role of women to tolerate things that make us uncomfortable and unsafe. No, penises in women's spaces aren't fine if the person with the penis waits 2/5/whatever years before taking their penis in those spaces. No, a piece of paper doesn't make any difference, especially given that nobody is allowed to ask to see it anyway. No, it wouldn't be OK if we were allowed to ask, and also no, we didn't fail to notice the way you attempted to shift the goalposts there.

No. Nein, non, nyet. Cocks do not belong in spaces where women are going to be undressing, unless they belong to very small children who're in the care of their mother/other female relative.

cannot tolerate anyone born male in a female space

Can I just post this here, on its own, just to admire the pure audaciousness of this statement.

Females should roll over and tolerate stuff?

What on earth is the definition of a 'female space' if we have to be told to tolerate people who are born males in that space.

Tolerate is an interesting word in the lexicon. Sometimes it's applied as 'tolerance', as in accepting those who have a different belief system, etc. (Ie 'intolerant people' = racists, homophobes)

And sometimes it's applied as in to deal with something unpleasant or annoying, or to continue existing despite bad or difficult conditions - tolerating difficult situations, medicine side-effects, etc.

I wonder which one we'd apply in this situation?

These people who don't hear NO are dangerous
Oh come on I'll only put it in for a second
NO
Oh come on I smoke menthol you won't get pregnant
NO
etc

Would be interested to hear from any trans posters on this? Would you be happy to wait a couple of years after starting hormone treatment to use open female changing rooms? (Assuming private cubicles are not available).

This seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Why do you keep insisting this is reasonable to you when the women here are saying it's not reasonable to them. We said no. No.

Seems this thread got stuck in the loo again.

Also sorry to hear about your experiences Ereshkigal I hope life is now better for you now

I'm sorry you had to go through that Ereshkigal I trust you got away from him in the end?

I did, thanks.

Well that makes more sense, for sure. Doesn't that take us right back to unisex self contained loos as being a good solution?

No. You’d need to replace say thirty or forty toilet cubicles which open into an open area (sinks and dryers etc) with individual lockable floor to ceiling rooms. Very few venues, or buildings have space for this.

And no, the solution is also NOT floor to ceiling cubes opening into a communal area is not the answer either. Why? Well women need that open space as private too.

Bowl "a third space however, would need to be self contained."

Well that makes more sense, for sure. Doesn't that take us right back to unisex self contained loos as being a good solution? Maybe alongside family loo type spaces, like the family's cubicles in modernised changing areas.

"I’m glad you agree, because That is what will happen if self ID comes through. "

To be clear, again, I'm not sold on the idea of self ID at all. Other posters often make the assumption that I'm in favour of it, and your post reads as if you you think I am too. It doesn't seem to make any difference how many times I say that, but just in case anyone's actually reading instead of either ignoring me or putting words in my mouth, I'm not pro self id as currently proposed, for a lot of the reasons that come up around safeguarding.

Daim, to bring it back to your OP, the way I perceive the current situation is that when something becomes 'trans-inclusive' it seems to be to the exclusion of something else.
As an example, CRUK dropping the word 'woman' from some cancer outreach; or definitions of homosexuality needing to include people of the opposite sex, or feminist movements having to include men.
There's bound to be fault on both sides, but it seems that at the moment the trans movement is focused on Occupying the place of something else, rather than expanding the spaces to suit everyone.
Whether that's toilets, magazines, medical advice & provision, places in sports, jobs on boards, representation in politics and so on ad infinitum.
I don't want to give way to make space for people who are trans - they are more than welcome to stand beside me, but not take the space that is meant for me and other women.

ereshkigal 's experience is sadly not that unusual.

I can tell you that if women cannot be guaranteed a female hcp or that other patients in hospital wards are biological females, there are MANY women whose partners will not allow them to access this treatment.

It is disproportionately (though not exclusively) true of women from minority ethnic groups, and vulnerable, less-educated women.

But hey, fuck them - as long as no one gets misgendered eh?

The only way I can see forward for GC feminists who cannot tolerate anyone born male in a female space is repealing the GRA and I just can't see that happening.

Interesting phrasing: makes it seem like Women are the problem. The men in the space are the problem. Then brings repealing GRA into it when no none has said that.

The only way I see forward is to keep segregated spaces, have a third safe space, work really hard towards increasing male acceptance of men who do not present in a masculine way and reducing Male violence to those people.

So this is actually a male problem. The problem is men and the solution needs to come from men. Let the men’s be unisex. Women however, require that space to be safe.

Why is "no" not good enough for you Daim? The onus shoudl be on those who want to change the status quo to demonstrate that it is OK to do so, not on those who are going to lose existing protections to argue why they don't want to be disadvantaged

No it isn't. Most women don't want males in female spaces. The end.

Indeed. And there's no way around it other than dissembling and dancing around the fact that you don't think women should be allowed boundaries and that consent doesn't matter.

As endless posts and pages of this thread attest.

No law on self ID is suddenly going to make random men think it's okay to go into the ladies changing room and not be challenged

I can tell you for definite that I was only allowed to use female toilets and other spaces on my own by my abusive controlling jealous partner because they were female and he couldn't come in. If he thought there might be male people there he would not have allowed it or have followed me in.

Is this a person of ambiguous gender who is quietly changing and causing you no problems?

They're unlikely to be of ambiguous sex, which is what you mean. Why would I care what their "gender" is?

Travis Alabanza is open about their close friendship with Alok, who claims that little girls are kinky and deviant and no where near as innocent as adults think.

He can say all this on social media. And, as yet, he is also going to be accepted, as a woman, into a female only space, containing women and little girls.

No.

Why can’t a transwoman change in the mens? We asked this on another thread the other day. The answer was ‘I’d feel unsafe.’ To which mine and other posters replied something along the lines of ‘well then call the police.’ Of course this simply was not to be entertained as an option.

Yes, I remember that one. It was made clear that calling the police was utterly pointless because they might take half an hour to turn up. Which makes it an equally unreasonable option for women.

Daim, what about someone genderfluid like Travis Alabanza / Eddie Izzard / Alok whatsit? You've heard about the fusses they kick up when challenged, & seen how quickly businesses cave? Do you think they should be able to use women's facilities as & when they feel like it?

Is the man behaving strangely? Deliberately exposing himself? If so then call the police.

What do you mean by deliberately? How the hell would I know?

A Man who may be a transwoman, a pervert, or an autogynephile is trying on a bikini and looking at themself in the communal mirror.

Is that deliberate to you? Can I say anything?

Or do I just have to put up with it because my boundaries have been eroded?