Diva magazine is trans inclusive

Yes hilare.

As this is a thread about diva magazine I though we might also like to. Talk about maybe diva magazine. The thing I find amusing about diva is the number of times clare balding as appeared in it over the years and other famous lesbians and that they have to. Find something else. To ask them about after the 3-4th interview lol

but the lads that thought it was fun to hit someone because they are diffent to them are not the same as me or many other trans woman so you are not allowing men into that space.

You are less different to those lads that hit you than you are to women - which is pretty much the crux of the problem.

It is clear that trans people's safety is most important here and the safety of women and girls is completely not trans people's problem.

Thank you for not pretending that you are in any way concerned with the safety of women and girls.

"You think it's ok then for people with penis's to be showering next to naked little girls?"

Let's insert any other charatistic into this sentence and see how it looks. I think it's not. OK for anyone with an atteaction to little. Girls to be near. Little girls that is a big difference. Or are we saying that anyone with an attraction to woman should not be around little girls?

Well. This thread has been enlightening. Or perhaps it would be better to say endarkening.

We as women are told that if a man in a female toilet assaults or exposes themselves, then just call the police and it will be dealt with. So why can't you just call the police if you feel unsafe in the gents?

Well exactly. If it’s a good enough solution for women...

I’m still struggling to understand why two posters don’t want to be in the gents because men have harmed them/make them feel unsafe and yet are proposing a solution where ALL men would be allowed in the women’s. Thereby making all women, and transwomen, exposed to the same behaviour they want to get away from.

Can one or both of you shed some light on this?

why don’t you feel safe in the men’s?
why can’t you just call the police?
how would opening women’s spaces to men help this?

These are fundamental questions.

We are going to go around in circles with this one I'm afraid as because you say we are men we should not be let. In to woman's toilets but the lads that thought it was fun to hit someone because they are diffent to them are not the same as me or many other trans woman so you are not allowing men into that space. Now I know you are going to disagree with that and say but these trans woman beat someone up. But then I can say by took Cheryl Cole hit someone in a toilet maybe we should ban celebrities from woman's toilets. I like. To beleive that most. People in the world do not want to commit crimes but unfortunately people do. What we don't do is go round profiling people based on those characteristics we tend to get in trouble when we do

But the numbers of trans people who want to be out certainly have increased.

Yes, what I meant was that the 'need' to use the female toilets as evidence to gain GRC hasn't really increased so we shouldn't be seeing lots more legal males in the female toilets if that is the main reason for doing so.

"I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "reacted badly" but that is pretty sinister."
Well, to anyone who actually knows any women with children, 'reacted badly' in a similar situation (like when a woman in a cubicle finds some bloke peering under the door or whatever), would be things like shouting 'get the fuck out of here, this is the ladies' Although when my missus confuses people by going into the ladies, she mostly gets a very significant funny look, and someone saying 'the gents is over there' or something similar.

Although I suspect that in many cases 'reacting badly' would be going out and complaining at the main desk. I understand why some people might think that women not just rolling over and accepting things is 'sinister'...............

Although let's face it, a far more likely scenario is a small child saying in their wonderfully loud voice 'Mummy, why is there a man in the changing room?....... But it's a man Mummy.........'

Hi Bowlofbabelfish having been assaulted in a men's toilet for looking a bit like a poof then I can answer that one.

We as women are told that if a man in a female toilet assaults or exposes themselves, then just call the police and it will be dealt with. So why can't you just call the police if you feel unsafe in the gents?

I mean, it almost looks like women's and girl's don't matter when the disparity between your safety and the safety of women and girls is put side by side don't you think?

I’ve not seen a penis in the changing rooms because the time I saw a man in the ladies changing room, I left immediately and haven’t gone back. So, yeah, no penises were seen.

I also didn’t get my workout, but hey ho, what do I matter?

Keep going people. This discussion highlights the determination of the few to ensure that women MUST accept penises in spaces where women are vulnerable / undress.

Women of faiths not allowed to show their bodies in front of men, women with anxiety about their body image, women with mental health issues, young women, girls, shy women, abused women, women from refugee communities, overweight women and so on. No consideration, sensitivity, thought, empathy for their needs and wishes - nothing.

All those women targeted over decades to get involved in swimming and other activities, to be more included in society and to improve their health through swimming and sport - thrown under a bus. All in order to meet the demands of the self centred and insensitive.

The numbers actually applying for a GRC haven't changed much year to year

But the numbers of trans people who want to be out certainly have increased

This is one of the most bonkers arguments I've heard in here yet! You do realise jurors are bound to convict on the law not their own internal prejudices?! And a trans women in a female changing room is breaking no law

You think it's ok then for people with penis's to be showering next to naked little girls?

That's quite some leap!

Personally I think the argument that "no jury will convict" is bonkers, as well as factually inaccurate. But saying this doesn't therefore mean that I think it's fine for people with the anatomy of an adult man to shower next to people with the anatomy of a young girl (except in specific circumstances such as a dad showering with his young daughter)

twitter.com/Dyketagnan/status/1011726121182740480

Excellent Twitter thread on this topic.

This is one of the most bonkers arguments I've heard in here yet! You do realise jurors are bound to convict on the law not their own internal prejudices?! And a trans women in a female changing room is breaking no law

You think it's ok then for people with penis's to be showering next to naked little girls?

I doubt there's a jury in the UK who would convict a parent of a hate crime if they reacted badly towards you once they spotted you in there amongst their young daughters, regardless of whatever assurances your woke friends may give you.

I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "reacted badly" but that is pretty sinister.

A hate crime doesn't exist independently of a crime: a crime must be committed in the first place. Assuming you are not planning actual GBH then what a jury might feel wouldn't come into it, as public order offences and minor assaults are heard by a DJ or by magistrates at the magistrates courts, and they absolutely would convict you.

It is never okay to assault someone unless it is self defence, and thinking someone looks a bit dodge isn't self defence.

[Did anybody else read it and think of Private Eye's "anyone come near my girls I swear I'll do time" contributor to their "From The Message Boards?]

natluc can I ask why you feel unsafe in the men’s please?

TimeLady, yesterday on another thread, Spontaneousgiventime posted that she'd asked the police what the position was if a little girl was being exposed to adult male genitals in an intimate setting. The response was that safeguarding always took priority. The penis owner would be removed.

Attacking people is wrong. Call the police instead.

My DB takes the robust view that any male bodied person in the women's showers is automatically suspect. I think most people would agree - particularly parents.

And, of course, when the numbers of men wanting to transition were much lower, the impact on women's spaces was much lower.

The numbers actually applying for a GRC haven't changed much year to year: www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2017-10-06/105995/

Can you please explain to me how allowing men, who you are both clearly saying committ violent acts, into women’s spaces is not a problem?

So a man beat you up for the way you looked? Well that’s dreadful and you have my sympathy. An awful lot of us have been on the end of male violence. Men are, as a class, rather a threat I’m afraid.

What I can’t get my head around logically is then to argue that the solution to you feeling unsafe in such a situation is to create a situation that exposes ALL women and girls AND transwomen to those men.

Help me here - how will allowing those men, who have harmed you bespin and who make you feel unsafe natluc into women’s spaces help? Because I can’t see it.

Can I just point out here Natluc that women and girls are not on this earth to act as human shields to trans people who say they are not the sex their physiology would suggest.

My DH has been assaulted in the men's toilet because he accidentally spilled someone's pint who then took umbrage to DH, followed him in when he went on his own to the toilet and tried to beat him up. (DH's friends saw what was happening and followed quickly after and intervened, thankfully)

He has never suggested that he should use the women's toilets in order to keep safe

Hi Bowlofbabelfish having been assaulted in a men's toilet for looking a bit like a poof then I can answer that one.

But what specifically makes you unsafe in the men’s?

Men being there?

Yes?

So how do women feel safe in the women’s if men can come in?

You’re saying that you face Male violence in the men’s toilets. And that the solution to that is to have men in the women’s toilets?

And you see absolutely no logical disconnect there at all?

Why do you not feel safe in the men’s natluc?