Diva magazine is trans inclusive

Just keep penises out of women and girls' spaces, that's all.

We say NO.

No penises in female-only spaces - for reasons of women and girls' personal safety, dignity, privacy etc etc.

You, my little spinning friend forget about safeguarding. Thankfully for our children, the Police do not!

Really you can have this thread, all you can do is offer personal attacks and repetition you have lost sight of the fact you are debating with real people and not just the idea of something. We go in changing rooms and some of us take our daughters on there because we go swimming too and parents of trans children take them in there too cos they like to go swimming too because they are children. We are mothers and fathers and aunties and uncles and we do what evenone else in the world does. When you other other people you loose sigh of there humanity

Not convinced that Bespin would be the best judge of what's good for our "cause" in general, honestly. It's the general public we're trying to reach, and parents in particular, who care very much about safeguarding issues.

This thread has proved one very important thing and something lurkers will have read. Little girls privacy, dignity and safety can just fuck right off!

Absolutely. And all in plain sight.

Parents don't want their daughters in a changing room/shower with a stranger who has a penis.
Because risk assessments and safeguarding trump adults feelings.

Enough of this some of us are parents too do you think that we would not put the safety of children first above all else. This is going to far you are just hurting your own cause now and trying to hurt other people you don't seem to think that there are people on the other side of this debate and they have lives and families. We are not some mysterious group of monsters would you can just accuse of the vilest of things with no thought to how that effects us an four friends and families.

I have tried to discuss the points you want to make but now you have stopped making points and are just accusing people if things this as stopped being a debate and is now just people hating with no reason on. Another group of people. And this is not even everyone on here there are lots of good people trying to do what they believe is right but a few just don't seem to care they will do anything to win this but winning at what cost

I think that pretty much all GC women used to be a lot more "accepting" and willing to compromise than we are now. Trans activists told me to listen to transwomen, and I did. Not the best suggestion they could have made, as it turns out

This. And oh how much worse the new rules have made it.

timelady "By 'reacted badly', I meant accusing the person of voyeurism or flashing, not suggesting that mothers or grannies in the changing rooms would beat the person up.....But in this day and age, I can easily see the mother or grannie being hailed before the court accused of a hate crime. And I don't believe a jury would convict."

It seems like you have got the wrong end of the stick with what hate crime actually is in practice. First, there has to be a crime of one of the usual sorts. The hate bit is where the crime is perceived to be motivated by prejudice or hostility to (e.g.) transgender people. A criminal act can be flagged as a hate crime and if convicted, an offence with a hate crime element can receive stricter sentencing.

Depressing, but also resolve stiffening.

Yep. I don't compromise with people who cannot perceive other people's rights to boundaries.

I think that pretty much all GC women used to be a lot more "accepting" and willing to compromise than we are now. Trans activists told me to listen to transwomen, and I did. Not the best suggestion they could have made, as it turns out.

I agree, Prawn

Zero tolerance now. And spidey-senses on full alert.

Shot themselves in the foot.

AAK, I'm already quite clear that I oppose the imposition of males in women only spaces regardless of how they identify. The honour system has been killed by abuse.

"The proposal of a third space which would protect trans people from violent men while also preserving the safety, privacy, and dignity of women and girls .... "
From a purely mathematical point of view, hard to see why this isn't the best option all round. Keeping women-only areas women-only allows possible stray male perps to be spotted. Adding a third gender neutral space gives transwomen, camp gay men etc etc, a safer option than using the gents. Also means that transmen don't have to make a choice between using the ladies (and worrying people), or trying to use the gents and making themselves more vulnerable if spotted. In terms of actual risk-reduction for those using the gender neutral, and not increasing the risk for those using the ladies, and factoring in the numbers involved, such a risk assessment is surely the winner? Chaps even get to keep their urinals, which they seem to like. Who looses apart from those for whom validation and entitlement matters more than actual safety of all concerned?

(I would attempt a Bayesian analysis of the above, but that is left as a trivial exercise for the reader..............maths/physics joke, those in the know will get it )

It's been said many times, but when people show you who they are you should believe them. The people making those arguments have shown us exactly who they are

^^This. And it's why I welcome them on to the MN FWR board because it shows them in their true light. Even those who claim to be 'women' don't respond like a woman would.

#weseeyou

Well. This thread has been enlightening. Or perhaps it would be better to say endarkening.

Depressing, but also resolve stiffening. So, this is what we're up against, a group of people (note that this group includes some people who are not trans themselves) who think that the safety, privacy, and dignity of 50% of the population should be sacrificed in order to prevent less than 1% of the population from potentially being on the receiving end of mistreatment from unpleasant men. The fact that their proposed solution will result in making it much easier for those unpleasant men to follow them into a space formerly free of those men does not appear to concern them. The fact that their proposed solution will render the space they're demanding be opened up to people for whom it was not intended unusable for some of the women and girls for whom it was intended does not concern them either. The proposal of a third space which would protect trans people from violent men while also preserving the safety, privacy, and dignity of women and girls has been rejected, because it reminds biologically male trans people that they are not biologically female.

It's been said many times, but when people show you who they are you should believe them. The people making those arguments have shown us exactly who they are, the question now is whether or not the general public is going to continue attempting to compromise with them or whether we're simply going to tell them "no, you can't have what you're asking for".

So we can lay to rest the ‘anyone acting badly in the toilets you can just call the police’ thing then? That’s good, because we’ve been saying this for a while - safeguarding is not about letting it happen then nabbing the perp after, it’s about preventing crime in the first place.

As a transwoman, if those men who assaulted you want to follow you into the ladies they will be able to, under self ID. So that’s not a great idea is it? And believe me they will. Violent men will use any loophole they can. So neither women not transwomen are made safer by self ID.

So why is this still being pushed for? When all the problems we as women have with it are raised, there’s always an ‘oh but you can just...’ objection from the activists so dismiss the worry. Suspicious looking bloke? Just call the cops! Oh but we can’t because....

The hypocrisy is astounding. This isn’t about the safety of a small group, it’s aboit appropriation.

You and me both, Flooffloof. I'm channeling my inner Greer more and more as I get older

why don’t you feel safe in the mens
Because I'm not a man I'm a trans woman and I'm often seen as every other woman and therefore at risk of assault and sexual assault in those spaces
so letting all men in the women's helps how?

if women can just call the police who will instantly arrive and remove any man being an issue why can’t you do that too?
Having called the police and waited the 20 to 30 minutes it took to respond what would you like anyone to do. Wait there and get. Assaulted more.
Do you imagine women get a better response time?
Genuinely curious, as the few Times I have called the police its been hours later they responded.

why, if you feel unsafe in the men’s, is the answer to allow all men
into the ladies?
Again this is an assumption that all men will. Want to id as woman
to access toilets some men no doubt will do that just as they will
die in partition. Walls to. Spy on woman or dress. Up. As janitors
and yes I do think that this is something we're we need discussion
but you are not wanting that you. Are wanting to ban trans woman
from spaces while ironically including trans men in them that look
like. Men so why can a man not just identify as a trans man and
access woman's spaces equally

I did not want to ban any current users from the women's, so [redacted] have used them alongside me for the 40 odd years I have been using them.
Then along came some activists who seem hell bent on trying to intimidate me into letting them in despite obvious dangers. When intimidation didn't work they tried whining like a child, then creating a name (playground behaviours ) to bully me and intimidate me.
Thing is, I am old now and I been around some. Non of the gaslighting stuff works.
And I get mighty angry at some [redacted ] trying to bully/gaslight/whine their way into my space.
So now, no you can't use my space, you show no empathy, sympathy, insight,charity or Grace.
All of which women have shown to you in decades.
It's a generic you.

My last experience of a swimming pool was a couple of years ago, taking my little granddaughter for toddler swimming lessons. Private pool, female communal changing room and I would have raised merry hell if I had been expected to share that space with a penis. Inverted or otherwise.

One woman broke ranks to say yes because she is a bisexual woman who is not attracted to people who have vaginas and would not have sex with someone who had a vagina.
That made my brain hurt!

I guess this is someone who old-style, would have said they liked male bits, but wasn't put off by the said male-bit possessor being a bit gender non-conforming, or even a full-on cross-dresser. But new-style, you have to instead say you are bisexual (both/either/all genders -- why should bisexuals get left out of the great renaming!), but I think the 'penis-fetishist' tag probably gets ignored?

It's trying to take sexual orientation and fix it instead on 'gender', and down-grade concerns about genitalia, and stick that instead under 'sexual preference' in the belief that orientation is fixed/innate/unchangeable, whereas a preference is socially-influenced and potentially changeable.

Or not. All part of the great double-speak drive, where if we keep changing what words mean, and stop anyone asking (for fear of saying the wrong thing), then everyone will finally stop talking about it.

And someone has finally found a way to appropriate bisexuality (why should gay people be the only ones feeling appropriated!).

We don't have communal showers, we have shower cubicles and an open changing area. The person was changing in the communal area. I personally wouldn't be naked in that area even with all female colleagues, but I wouldn't be offended or afraid if I saw a female body in there wearing less clothing than I personally would choose to wear in that situation. I now wouldn't shower in the cubicles knowing that a male could be in the communal area outside.

This is exactly what my gym is like, and is also an accurate description of my feelings.

After a difficult childhood and adolescence, it's taken me until nearly the age of 40 to be comfortable changing in front of other women.

I genuinely live in dread and fear of the day a TIM decides to invade the women's changing rooms at my gym.

What a depressing thread to read.

I dispare at what has happened to mumsnet.

I've not been on much at all and mainly on other boards.

But the difference in just a few weeks is heart breaking.

I've not read the whole thread(couldn't bring myself too)

But it's obvious, that the only people cheering this are not lesbians(as in biological females attracted to biological females, can't believe I've had to write this!)

So something set up originally for those biological Women, are being usurped by anyone who is not.

nice

SSSHHHHHHhhhhhh silly women don't be so closed minded, you don't know what you are, because someone else has decided who they are