please don't vanish - we are all crucial to the future for women and girls

Well said Maryz and pencils

There is nothing civil or mutually respectful about the way this debate has been allowed to develop since these new rules were instigated.

This! This! This!

I fully support all the women who need to leave or at least take time out away from the gaslighting and abusive environment FWR has become. No woman should be required to stay.

I'm staying though. Hi lurkers!

Yes, exactly as Maryz says.

The guidelines are framed as gender critical feminists who want free speech versus trans posters who are vulnerable:

Mumsnet will always stand in solidarity with vulnerable or oppressed minorities.

Women may not be a minority but many of us are vulnerable and as a class we are oppressed.

Some have criticised Mumsnet for allowing posts that some trans people find offensive, even hateful.

I am right now criticising Mumsnet for allowing posts that many of here, long term posters, mostly women, find offensive and hateful.

To try to create a more civil and mutually respectful conversation ...

There is nothing civil or mutually respectful about the way this debate has been allowed to develop since these new rules were instigated.

We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people.

Instead you are allowing many many posts which are derogatory and aggressive towards women, including direct attacks on long term posters.

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

This board is chock full of sweeping negative generalisations about gender-critical feminists.

what we’re trying to do here is create a more civilised and constructive discussion

It's not working.

We do not want Mumsnet to be a place that feels inherently hostile to any group, be that trans people, gender-critical feminists or anyone else (except perhaps trolls). If you can abide by our rules – the spirit and not just the letter – we want you to feel you can be a part of the community.

Mumsnet now feels inherently hostile to gender critical feminists. I don't think it feels inherently hostile to trolls. They appear to be having a good time. I no longer feel I can be part of this community.

I'm not leaving, I will stay and continue reading. I will post information and links etc. but I will no longer discuss or debate on this board, at least not while it's like this. I hope it's temporary.

It’s been over a year since I posted here. Last time was just before DS3 was born, and it was about TRAs complaining about period chat being transphobic (I had a little chat with Rufus’ DS, I think...) and how I was sick of bisexuals and lesbians being called transphobic.

In the past year or so, I’ve had a baby, gone back to work, quit my job, changed country, changed language, and job hunted. I’ve been reading these boards and watching YouTubers express my rage. But I think it’s time to step back up and start expressing it myself. And give much more vocal support to those who have been protesting for the rest of us.

I’ve been speaking face-to-face to friends and family, planting seeds of GC thoughts, and talking about the cotton ceiling, misused statistics, and transing children. About the erasure of personality differences and sexuality. And some people are listening, a little bit. And that’s a start, even a little bit of doubt creeps in and makes it hard to accept everything they’re being sold. And face-to-face is great, but I can only reach small numbers like that, and the one place we shouldn’t be being silenced is on the internet!

When I wrote my thread back in Nov ‘16, we were saying that it was starting to look like peak trans was approaching, it would burn itself out soon etc etc, but it’s all still going on, and now people are being deleted and banned for speaking the truth. On Mumsnet! It’s crazy!

So this is me, signing in again. I’m a bit out of practice, but I want to be able to support those of you who have been doing an absolutely outstanding job of standing up and speaking for women

I can only imagine how distressing some of those posters must be. But at the same time they’re an absolute gift. Lurkers aren’t stupid.

I’m so grateful to posters like babel who can debunk the faux science. And to the ones who know the law. I sometimes feel I can’t contribute much beyond snurking - but I’m trying to do more.

Delighted to hear you're digging in Bowlofbabelfish. I positively relish watching you deploy your scientific laser beam

I've only got as far Mary's comment, but it describes so perfectly what I think and feel that I have to repeat it...

You know what I mind more than being told what to say? I mind the fact that others, new to this board, neither feminists nor women, are allowed to say what they like to the rest of us.

They are allowed to register, and within minutes start lecturing us. Telling us what to think and what to say. Telling us lies, and calling us names for questioning those lies. They are allowed to report us, to bully us, to belittle us. To make jokes about and minimise problems that individuals have (for example infertility, domestic abuse, birth injury and much more).

They are being positively encouraged to come, to register, to be nasty to everyone. And eventually when they finally cross the pretty much invisible line in the sand in the far distance that is MN's new position of goaders/abusers/MRAs/fantasists they are asked to leave, at which point they re-register.

We know they are PBPs but yet they are given the chance to start again, to continue with their abuse and their gas-lighting and their lies.

Meanwhile those of us who have been here for a long time are disregarded, dismissed and patronised.

It's the unfairness that gets to me, even more than the newspeak and the lies and the attempts to control our thoughts.

YES!!!

Some woman have taken themselves away from here to protect themselves from the abusers currently trolling the board. But no one has gone away.

Remember the suffragettes: "courage calls to courage everywhere".

And if you haven't seen this yet: start your day with a fabulous reminder of how women are fighting back:

This board has been a revelation to me. I'm in my 60s now but never noticed male socialisation and entitlement until it was pointed out to me here. ...and now I see it everywhere.

I thought of you all yesterday when a penis owner here in Spain was trespassing and I told him forcefully to bugger off. I then followed him to the main gate, several paces behind. He was cursing and spitting as he went, like a three year old having a tantrum. At the gate he turned round and made rude gesticulations towards his genitals; fortunately my Spanish isn't good enough to understand, but I got the gist. But you know what, thanks to you lot, I wasn't frightened by his aggression, it just made me even more mad and stand my ground. So the brain-in-a-dick stormed off, chased away by a 5'1" silver haired grannie.

And it felt good

I have seen some shocking posts. Women who have survived physical health issues, infertility, cancer and birth injuries, having their experiences being used by males.

Threads derailed to discuss the above.

The gaslighting is very damaging to many.

Women, aren't being protected from abuse here, only males feelings matter here.

Many people with many agendas are on these boards.

I don't blame people who leave.

I’m staying until I’m deleted. I’m a stubborn git and lo and behold the last years dealing with toddlers, work and life generally have bestowed me with some semblance of rhino hide, and patience. I think it’s important that someone is countering all the ridiculous pseudoscience that’s being spouted and I can do that. So I will.

So I’m here until I’m booted off. Which I’m sure will happen but until then I’ll do my bit.

I totally understand why people are leaving and that’s their prerogative. I don’t blame them at all. Sorry to see them go, but everyone needs to look after themselves first and foremost.

Btw spontaneous I did email the owner of the other place but I haven’t had a reply for a link to join up - any chance you could remind, I may have got lost somewhere...

I'm staying.

The blatant nonsense spouted by the activists shows up the flaws in their arguement, every time. As frustrating as it undoubtedly is, their presence on the FWR board only helps to trans peak the undecided, who can read it for themselves.

I'm relatively new to all this but plan to stay. I found this board via The Spectator articles and others will too. It's so important to keep the discussion going on a open board.

I know I don't post that much but, for what it's worth, I'm not going. I wouldn't give them the satisfaction. Plus I think it's vital to keep the discussion going on a public forum - if it hadn't been for these boards, I'd probably still be thinking, 'Where's the harm?'

I've asked for the details of the new place but at the moment, I'm only planning to activate them if it all goes tits up here.

And as a former, long time lurker, I can assure you the new goady posters are doing themselves and their arguments no favours whatsoever.

We don't want to hurt the feelings of the vulnerable.

We're posting on the FWR board about issues which affect the rights (and heck, yes feelings certainly of the vulnerable ones) of women and girls.

I just went and had a quick look at the LBGT boards... I didn't spot any familiar names from here, invading that support space. (Actually there was one thread with no replies who might find views from here helpful but I think she needs to find us not us dive in there.)

I think MN genuinely tries to hold higher standards than many other platforms but the result is a variant on the old story - women having to be nicer than men.

^^ Exactly.

To see them welcomed on to a so called feminist board and women told that we must watch our tongue lest we hurt the feelings of those who are demanding we submit is distressing to put it mildly.
I will not walk on eggshells.

This.

I agree with Maryz, it is the welcoming of the abusers that upsets me the most.
It took me a lot of years to repair the damage as best I could that was done to me by abusers in my childhood.
To see them welcomed on to a so called feminist board and women told that we must watch our tongue lest we hurt the feelings of those who are demanding we submit is distressing to put it mildly.
I will not walk on eggshells.
I miss my friends who left when they were put at risk by Mumsnet's lax security.

Because if we don't, SPOFS, the lurkers will be blind.

A few years ago I was all for trans rights. I had no idea how they conflicted with women's rights. If the posters on FWR hadn't remained calm, accepting, logical, sensible, I'd still have no idea.

If all the knowledgeable ones head off, a new generation of lurkers will remain ignorant.

Strategy SPOFS, strategy. Public forum = awareness raising.

Plus I'm an obstinate old bag who hugely resents attempts to control me and resists to the max

Go where you're celebrated, not tolerated.

They don't want us, so why should we stay?

Life is so much easier for women when they (we) appease men isn't it... Until we finally come to understand that,for them, nothing is ever enough until we've lost absolutely everything and they walk away almost satisfied.

Sadly I agree with that, Abouttoblow.

Their lives would be easier if we all disappeared. They could have the occasional WAWAG thread on the main boards, but could mainly not upset the TRAs, and the world would keep turning and the money would keep coming in.

Not for the first time I'm disappointed in Justine. Over the years I've ebbed and flowed in my admiration for her. I accept the pressure must be huge; I'm sure if I was being attacked in real life and in my real name I'd be running scared, but I truly believe that she is making a mistake here. MN has come so far - changing now won't protect Justine or her family; she's still considered terfy and fair game by the MRA/TRAs.

This latest round of appeasement won't be enough. There will be further demands which will mean deleting/hiding FWR and banning us all.

Will just be handier to retitle to FWRCATDAM (Feminism And Women's Rights Chatting About Anything That Doesn't Annoy Males)