Transgender people can be turned away from female only spaces government says

No, the figure is between 15 and 20 per cent at most.

Definitely not. Statistics aren't easy to come by but across both sexes we seem to be running at about 400 medical procedures a year (NHS and private) and a broadly similar number of GRCs. The two don't correlate because surgery is more difficult for trans men so in practice there are relatively few trans women with a GRC who haven't had surgery but a good number of trans men who have had a GRC but no bottom surgery, or only partial surgery.

Figures like 15% aren't in the right ball park. If about 200 GRCs are issued to women each year, that would suggest only 30 of the them have surgery. That's complete tosh.

HappensInHumans

I know what you mean , I can usually smell MALE COWS EXCREMENT

Common or garden BS

People are struggling to know who is trans and who isn't.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/mexico-elections-fake-transgender-candidates-disqualified

Just to check, if someone born with a penis gets a gender recognition certificate, have they had to have their penis cut off in order to do so?

The law was brought in due to someone who had had GRS taking their case to the European Court of Human Rights. The court ruled that someone who had been through so much to change their appearance should have legal recognition as a woman. The UK law never made it a condition to have surgery before granting a GRC, and the European Court has since ruled (French case last year) that requiring sterilisation (which GRS would do) would be a violation of human rights.

I don't think the court gave adequate consideration to the implications of allowing men to become legally women whilst keeping their male genitalia.

Yes, and most transgender people won't legally be able to Self-ID as Self-ID is usually described because they won't be able to sign the Statutory Declaration.

Can you give me a brief description of what you mean by 'transgender people', Snappity? Is it everyone under the Stonewall trans umbrella? Because that is so broad it covers almost everyone.

Mammyoftwo

Just to check, if someone born with a penis gets a gender recognition certificate, have they had to have their penis cut off in order to do so?

No, the figure is between 15 and 20 per cent at most.

Of course you can't. Women don't have to regularly dilate their vaginas to prevent them from closing up.

An inverted penis is not a vagina. It doesn't form part of gestation, conception, menstruation. It doesn't have a cervix, it comes to a dead-end.

The vagina does have a purpose, you know! Other than just sex.

For anyone who is interested this is an article by Juno Roche, a transwoman who speaks very candidly about their neo-vagina.

www.refinery29.uk/transgender-vagina-surgery

It's hard not to have any sympathy for someone who has set much store by something that doesn't seem to have come true for them.

But it's also quite obvious, that this is a uniquely transwoman experience, not a woman's.

I'm still confused by trans ideology. So the foetus undergoes a testosterone wash, but the brain doesn't match the resultant genitalia. Someone with a penis thinks it shouldn't be there, and vice versa.

Doesn't this mean all trans people would have acute dysphoria that would be evident from the earliest age, maybe even babyhood? Wouldn't they all require surgery before they could have a fulfilling sex life? I've heard of other cases where people believe, for example, that their legs don't belong to them. They suffer and can barely function. How does the testosterone wash theory account for people who don't want surgery?

One cannot ‘remap soft tissues’ to form the structures of the opposite sex. What does that even mean? It has no meaning.

One can use /remove/resite various tissues and parts to create facsimiles, but the idea that an adult can have some bits shuffled around and they create working female anatomy is entirely incorrect.

Humans are not plug and play. Or lego. Or plasticine.

Bowl thank you for your clear science based explanation. So important on these threads to make sure that truthful, factual, scientific content is available. It really is so helpful when someone comes along and can clear a way through the dross.

Incorrect. On both counts. You cannot just shuffle around soft tissues and create working female reproductive parts. The embryo does not start as a full default female - that’s a misunderstanding of the developmental pathways involved.

You are changing what the original poster said. This was a discussion about remapping soft tissues and the original poster was medically correct and you are wrong. I could give details but then people complain about being overly graphic.

Are you suggesting that transwomen are a small minority of 'trans people in general'?

Yes, and most transgender people won't legally be able to Self-ID as Self-ID is usually described because they won't be able to sign the Statutory Declaration.

Ta bowl
Glad u here to tell me that stuff as I didn’t know what actually happened and might have taken wake post to be right

Just doing my bit for Science

I opened the thread, saw the first few replies and hoped to god that @Bowlofbabelfish would contribute with some actual, y'know, facts.

I was not disappointed.

My eyes start to water and I can feel the male hormones hit the back of my throat, the smell is that strong to me, if I enter a meeting room full of males that have been in there a while.

I'm pretty observant. I can't imagine a single person that I looked at has slipped through the net tbh. Women do notice these things. We have done since small girls. Just because we haven't said anything, didn't stare at you or didn't make you feel uncomfortable, don't think we didn't notice. We did. Its a woman thing.

Human evolution helps us know.

We use touch, sight,sounds and smells to differentiate males from females because males are a risk to us.

I can smell males, I don't even need to see them.

I gather males can't smell other males as well as women can.

I can smell what I describe as a bollocks smell, if a male has been in a closed room for over an hour.

When I used to be a toilet attendant, I had to let them in but that would be my cue to start mopping the floor so no-one could be hanging around the communal bit. I also used to supervise mens ones and if I saw guys going into a cubicle together I used to bang on the door for them to get out. I'm mean like that.

t's mainly a case of redistributing the soft tissues to return them to their original feminine configuration (we all start with essentially female genitalia).

Incorrect. On both counts. You cannot just shuffle around soft tissues and create working female reproductive parts. The embryo does not start as a full default female - that’s a misunderstanding of the developmental pathways involved.

As I’ve said, multiple times, I have worked in the field of genetics and developmental biology for decades. Your grasp of science is either poor or you are deliberately misrepresenting.

It doesn’t matter where an operation is carried out. All you can do is remove some parts via penectomy and orchidectomy and create something that’s a rough facsimile of female parts. The look, roughly, but not the function.

Humans cannot change sex.

How would you know how many you don't notice?

I'm pretty observant. I can't imagine a single person that I looked at has slipped through the net tbh. Women do notice these things. We have done since small girls. Just because we haven't said anything, didn't stare at you or didn't make you feel uncomfortable, don't think we didn't notice. We did. Its a woman thing.

what do you think women who do notice do?

Oohh oohhh moss i know!!! I know!!!!

Wakame spoke of trans women but you are trying to argue against it using statistics about trans people in general which you know includes many people who don't want surgery.

If these people will be able to get a GRC under self-id, then they should be included in discussions of this topic.

Are you suggesting that transwomen are a small minority of 'trans people in general'?

"No - although 87% of trans women have wither had, or want vaginoplasty:"

According to GIRES only 5% of all transgender people have sought any medical treatment. That includes therapy, not just hormones and surgery.

That figure is expected to rise to 20%, but it's obviously bollocks that 87% have had or want the surgery.

@Juzzal, Wakame spoke of trans women but you are trying to argue against it using statistics about trans people in general which you know includes many people who don't want surgery.