Ministers commit to preserving sex-based exemptions

I think both sides need to show empathy. Yes, some people are transphobic, but not all those arguing for sex segregation are doing so because they hate trans people. That is why I am arguing for third spaces- I wouldn't expect a trans woman (at any stage of transition) to use male facilities. But I think that by just having two types of facilities, both trans people AND women are being let down.

Segregation of trans people into a third space is a total non-starter. The optics are appalling. It would face an immediate human rights challenge - and lose.

PeakPants
Sorry Damn,...

Sorry, Peak... I'm afraid I responded to your previous post before I saw the clarification.
I think you and I may be astonishingly close to agreement on this —- but I'm afraid that doesn't count for anything much.

Kettlepotblackagain I recommend reading their own words. It is quite fascinating and not being that way inclined myself an eye opener. Try a forum, American ones are the most open and revealing.

So that transphobes can lie in wait for us?

To be fair, if they wanted to, they would lie in wait for you as you exited the ladies' too. If lots of people of either sex use the unisex loos, I don't think this puts trans people at an elevated risk.

For heaven's sake ! How many times does it have to be said? A ladies loo is not a "women's protected space"?

You are right. We do keep making it about toilets. I think I am thinking more about female-specific services and naked changing spaces. Do you have any view on that- is there in your view ever a situation where it is legitimate to segregate based on biology rather than gender identity?

One of the biggest give-a-ways of a person who presents opposite their birth sex is voice. While a trans man's voice does lower it will still have that tell tale sign they cannot change. Both sex's have major issues with voice and it is the biggest hurdle.

But you aren't trying to force them into the gents, are you? It's only transwomen that you are trying to force into a position of extreme danger. (and, incidentally, I think you'll find that trans-women are actually at higher risk of rape and other physical violence than cis-women)

I don't think this is entirely fair. It's not just about safety, it is about privacy and dignity. 9 times out of 10, you as a trans woman would not be attacked in the gents, but there are other reasons why it is not appropriate for you to use it. Your body looks different, you would attract unwanted attention etc. Same if I went into the gents- I would probably not get attacked (although there is a risk), but it would cause me discomfort. I have many male friends, but I don't think it's appropriate to share certain spaces- due to dignity, not risk of attack.

For trans women like yourself, there is a large variation between physical presentation. For instance, someone like yourself has had surgery, but many others will not have done so. Someone at the beginning of their transition will still present in a way that corresponds with birth sex. Of course, there is a potential risk that there COULD be attacks (but I certainly don't think trans people are excessively prone to violence), but it is more about the body that is quite obviously not biologically female and may cause bio-women to feel uncomfortable. Not because they hate trans people, in the same way a lack of comfort even around men they know well does not mean they hate men.

I think both sides need to show empathy. Yes, some people are transphobic, but not all those arguing for sex segregation are doing so because they hate trans people. That is why I am arguing for third spaces- I wouldn't expect a trans woman (at any stage of transition) to use male facilities. But I think that by just having two types of facilities, both trans people AND women are being let down.

If scientific evidence demonstrates that, for example, trans men are likely to exhibit predatory male behaviours after transition, become abusive, assault, rape etc then I would not be comfortable sharing spaces with them. However, if they are female bodied and socialised as a female, and there was no third space for trans people (which I think there should be, and that should be the focus of the trans campaign) then I would not have the same objections.

Puberty is very much part of the medical hormonal transition experience according to most verifiable accounts.

Unfortunately people often behave like complete asses when in puberty, so trans people in that stage of transition often behave like total ass hats too. It wears off once the puberty of the new gender is done. Unless they were total assholes before transition too, in which case they are stuck with it.

It's interesting to me to see posters stating they would be fine with a trans man in a female space, especially if they were told the person was born female.

That's not been my experience of it at all, though if I'd taken a guess before actually being in that position lots of times I would have thought I'd be just fine with it.

It turns out the psychological response is way more complex than that, and that once a person starts reading as male (I mean the small perceptions that our brains use to establish gender) I'm really not comfortable with them being somewhere I would ordinarily only share with females. And this includes super close people whom I've known for years and years as their original gender. You'd think the brain would be able to override what it sees and hears with what it knows, but that's not the case here.

And I think there's a further problem with the argument I often see here that trans men would be welcomed in women's spaces and that therefore it's not anti trans to exclude trans women from them.

Are you going to take their word for it? Or ask to check their pants? Because trans men are often really really hard to tell apart from youngish natal blokes. And I get that you might think at this point that you'd be fine with it, but bear in mind that your brain will be busy telling you there's a bloke there, because the person in front of you will likely look and sound very much like a young bloke, and will be dressed as and behaving as a male.

So given that males are hellbent on getting into women's spaces (I'm paraphrasing the GC prevailing wind here) surely if trans men were welcomed into women's spaces then it would be a shitload easier to just say you're a trans man to get access, than to present as a trans woman.

I'd be less likely to feel they are a threat that should say!!!

They would also have not been socialised with male privilege and patriarchal power, therefore Id be more likely to feel they are a threat. However, I'm always willing to change my views if scientific evidence shows me I am wrong.

Well, yes. Your formative years of socialisation are vital in shaping the person you become. Science can't row that back and change it so how you were brought up from birth is how you behave as an adult.

Sorry Damn, I got that wrong. I think with toilets and changing rooms, if there was a genuine unisex space that many natal women/men would also use it, as well as non-binary people (some of whom say they don't use the toilet at all when out because there is only M and F). Personally, I prefer individual self-contained toilets so if it was a choice between that and stalls in the ladies, I would choose the unisex. I think that this would help to break down some of the stigma and I wouldn't envisage the third space just being the 'trans toilet'. But I think that would strike some balance and allow privacy and dignity both for trans people and for natal women.

That sounds really interesting. If you do remember, I'd like to have a read...

I'll try to find it. I think it was on a forum for people who present opposite to their birth sex. They were discussing fat distribution and how if you are of the sex that has no bum or hips then hormones don't help. Someone posted a link and the Doctor was quoted in that.

It's worth remembering when cross sex hormones are taken the person goes into the opposite puberty. Therefore trans men will take years to have the same levels and possibly never the same physique and strength.

Yes that's what I thought.

They would also have not been socialised with male privilege and patriarchal power, therefore Id be more likely to feel they are a threat. However, I'm always willing to change my views if scientific evidence shows me I am wrong.

how is it a lie to say that with a GRC they are legally a woman?

I wasn't taking a pop at you. The GRC itself is a legal lie. People such as yourself who feel completely tickety-boo with that are allowed freedom of speech on MN FWR, whereas people such as myself, who are uncomfortable with it and seek for the legal ambiguity to favour the objective reality that sex change is impossible, are given the @MNHQ kosh for being uncivil and not of the nice, uncontroversial, sanctioned and approved by Emma's mates perspective.

On the subject of cross sex hormones. I read a little while ago about a Doctor who prescribes these drugs and manages those who take them. He said it was extremely common to see the patient regress to their puberty stage and become stroppy, unreasonable, rude, tendency to have strong mood swings, etc. All the things a pubescent child presents. I wish I could remember where I read it, it was fascinating.

That sounds really interesting. If you do remember, I'd like to have a read...

PeakPants
Damn I would assume though as a trans man (I took that from your last post but apologies if I am wrong) that you yourself do not want to use women's segregated spaces. Out of interest, do you always feel safe in male spaces or would you welcome an increased number of third/unisex spaces?
I'm afraid you're wrong! I'm a transwoman — post-op and with an (old-style) GRC. I do not want to use male-segregated spaces. Genuinely unisex spaces are fine. I don't like using disabled loos etc., because I am not disabled. And I would absolutely not use a space labelled "trans"! There is so much trans hatred being deliberately stoked up that being seen going in or out of a "trans" space would be tantamount to wearing a big sign round my neck saying "Attack me".

But I have only once had an issue using ladies loos or changing rooms — and that once was when i was working at an American military establishment.

In everyday life it simply isn't an issue. Not for me or for anyone else using the facilities for the same purpose.

On the subject of cross sex hormones. I read a little while ago about a Doctor who prescribes these drugs and manages those who take them. He said it was extremely common to see the patient regress to their puberty stage and become stroppy, unreasonable, rude, tendency to have strong mood swings, etc. All the things a pubescent child presents. I wish I could remember where I read it, it was fascinating.

Damn I would assume though as a trans man (I took that from your last post but apologies if I am wrong) that you yourself do not want to use women's segregated spaces. Out of interest, do you always feel safe in male spaces or would you welcome an increased number of third/unisex spaces?

So even though there is no legislation in place at the moment that forbids any of those people from using a ladies loo, you want the law rewritten to exclude transwomen—the one group that is most vulnerable if they venture into the gents

Actually, Damn, I believe that a group even more vulnerable if they went into the gent's is natal women. You know, given the high murder and rape rate. Which is why they have protected spaces, because they would not be safe in the gent's.

Trans people should also be given protected spaces so that trans women do not have to use male toilets. However, it does not automatically follow that they should go into women's protected spaces, because those are for women. They need their own protected spaces.

Is there evidence to show that trans men exhibit more aggressive behaviours towards females once they have transitioned?

It's worth remembering when cross sex hormones are taken the person goes into the opposite puberty. Therefore trans men will take years to have the same levels and possibly never the same physique and strength.

Kettlepotblackagain
Is there evidence to show that trans men exhibit more aggressive behaviours towards females once they have transitioned?
Yes. It's in the famous Swedish study that you all love to misquote for "evidence" that all trans people are probably rapists (in spite of the fact that a lot of us couldn't be even if we wanted to be and tried incredibly hard to be, because we don't have penises.)

the one group that is most vulnerable if they venture into the gents.

Old men, disabled men, weak men are vulnerable too.

Don't worry we all have to use the effing men's loos, as TRAs made everything unisex.