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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do social services take away the children instead of the violent man?

210 replies

chaoticgood · 23/06/2018 22:59

Call me naive but I had never really considered before how a common reason for removing children from their homes & separating them from their mothers is that the mother "refuses to leave" their violent partner and the children are considered to be in danger from the man. I saw a documentary about this recently and then looked into it more and I am absolutely shocked that men who are considered a danger to children are so often allowed to remain in normal society while the child and the mother are forcibly separated, causing immense trauma to both, and the child is put into care with all the known disadvantages that brings.

I don't know why everyone is not shouting from the rooftops about the absolute inhumanity and insanity of this. If a man is a danger to children why is he not locked up? People who are a danger to themselves and others are supposed to be sectioned under the mental health act, I thought. If they are a man and the "others" to whom they are a danger are their partner's children then what, that's ok because boys will be boys, and we should remove the child from the danger instead because the danger itself is just how the world is and can't be helped, we can only try to get out of its way?

It seems to me that the assumptions behind this practise and behind the acceptance of it are:

  1. Male violence is a fact of life, like the weather. It's a mother's job to protect her child from these things, and if she does not manage it she does not deserve to keep the child.
  2. Men are entitled to abuse their partner and their partner's children. A man who goes next door and assaults his neighbours will be in prison or sectioned but in His Own House Under His Roof the rules are different.
  3. Women "choose" to remain with violent men for the sheer fun of it and those who do so are selfish women who are choosing for themselves at the expense of their children. (All this choosing going on, huh, it's not as if violent men ever target vulnerable, previously abused women and mess with their heads until they lose sight of their free will or anything.)

I just don't get how social services can have enough evidence of a child being in danger to actually remove them, but somehow that evidence is not enough to remove the man who is actually doing the bad things???

OP posts:
HelenaDove · 24/06/2018 03:08

Fab posts Battleax Totally agree.

Offred · 24/06/2018 03:04

My interactions with SC have been very different to my friend’s too. She was desperate to get them out of her life. I have been motivated to make them do stuff and not let them close the case.

That depends on having a basic level of belief in the system which comes from socialisation. I am not afraid of them and see them as there to help. She sees them as there to judge.

It is not irrational TBF.

Offred · 24/06/2018 03:01

Oh it does categorise poverty as moral failure.

When I left my ‘high earning’ husband I became a ‘benefit claimant’ despite zero having changed in my personal circs.

When I was assessed by SC their attitude changed immediately when they saw my degree certificate and I told them it was an LLB.

As part of parenting capacity SC assess whether a single parent has work.... what does having work say that has any meaning regarding parenting capacity?

Battleax · 24/06/2018 02:57

Not only that, but the WC partner or a violent WC man, who faces far more barriers to extricating herself and the children compared to her MC counterpart, (to obtaining alternative housing, to obtaining legal help, to securing an adequate income and so on), she is understood to be lacking agency, intelligence and gumption and that this reflects on her parenting instincts.

It’s an inherent bias written deep into every element of the system. It comes close to categorising material poverty as a moral failure.

Offred · 24/06/2018 02:54

Yy battlax

Offred · 24/06/2018 02:53

He was never on that tenancy, they housed her there after the assault case.

She’s the only one responsible for the debt.

If it were me, I would be disputing the amount. I’ve advised her to do so and how to.

The main issue is one of confidence and experience.

Why would you play ‘by the rules’ when those rules penalise you?!

She has been much better off playing the system. I can’t argue with that.

For me that wouldn’t work because I have different socialisation but I don’t think the way that works best for me is what will solve her problems.

Battleax · 24/06/2018 02:52

You can apply for an urgent case to the court by writing personally to the judge. Solicitors swallow money but all of these kinds of things can be done by yourself or a capable friend. The actual fees to the court are very minimal and I seem to remember an occupation order and non-Mol are free.

@Terfulike just stop for a moment to consider the social capital, confidence, MC privilege, education and general dynamism you’re describing or quite unconsciously assuming there.

I also think pinkbobbles hit open one of the key issues very early on; the yawning gulf between the attitude of the two different types of family law to men who are violent to their women.

Of course what ties it all together is class. Stereotypes and preconceptions of class. If a MC man punches his wife a few times this is understood to be an aberration in his behaviour and the wife trying to express concern that he’s a risk to the children will be ignored and he’ll be granted contact or shared residence. If a WC man is violent in the same way, it is automatically ascribed to his animalistic and uneducated essential self and he’s consider d irredeemable and a risk to all around him, most of all any children of the household.

HelenaDove · 24/06/2018 02:49

I completely understand where you are coming from Offred. It just angers me that she seems to have been failed (not by you) and i agree with what you say is happening in housing. Tenants are seen as a humogenous mass to be managed.

Chasing her for the debt is easier than chasing him and they can get away with it because of the way the narrative about tenants has been reframed.

Offred · 24/06/2018 02:33

I have tried regarding domestic abuse policy (and did at the time) but it’s hard because in truth, when I am acting as her spokesperson and she suffers from such a deep lack of trust in the system (reasonable IMO having actually dealt with the representative) there is only so much I can do.

Running off re debts has, I acknowledge, been a more effective strategy for her re her personal circs than taking responsibility for them (she is looking to bankruptcy now for the 2nd time).

I have got her to get WA involved and advised her what arguments to make re the broken window debate but I can’t, and wouldn’t want to impose my view on her regarding what is best for her re survival and negotiation of the system.

HelenaDove · 24/06/2018 02:26

Offred thats disgusting. She has been failed time and time again by authorities and organisations.

Which HA was it out of curiosity Im asking because a couple of them do have domestic abuse policies.

PencilsInSpace · 24/06/2018 02:03

What LangCleg said.

Offred · 24/06/2018 02:00

Housing has been privatised and even where it is handed over to not for profits and the third sector the system has become harsher.

Offred · 24/06/2018 01:57

Investigations are taking longer too. There are more mistakes by police and the CPS.

Social care can’t cope.

Women are in their own TBH.

I don’t think people realise.

Offred · 24/06/2018 01:56

Yes, and now due to changes to the police bail system combined with police cuts offenders may not even be arrested and if they are then they are often bailed without conditions.

Oswin · 24/06/2018 01:46

The system fails women.
Pp have spoke about women who refuse to presses charges. Maybe if they were sure their abusers would go to prison they would. But because he probably wont they cant take the risk that he will walk out the place station and come back and kill her straight away.
When i was 14 i was in a relationship with an 18 year old. He was abusive. One day he decided to kill me. He beat me then held me in the road for a car to hit us. I managed to get away. He was charged with assult and ordered to pay me 50 fucking pound. I thought he would be gone. He didnt spend a day in prison.

Why would these women presses charges when they are treated by the system like they dont matter.

Offred · 24/06/2018 01:08

That’s my point really. If things are going to be offered as ‘the solution’ then they a. Need to be effective and b. Need to be available to all.

If you need to have a certain level of privilege to access the solution whether that be education, money, social relationships etc then these things are not actually solutions...

I think that very often people who trust ‘the system’ do so because ‘the system’ in their experience has been effective. They can’t imagine that the system fails people and they tend to be suspicious of others who say it does.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/06/2018 01:02

The whole point with these men is they isolate then they begin the process of getting the woman so compliant she believes it is her fault and she is why he hits her. If she didn't do this, do that, say this, do that on time and so on. These women are often so beaten down they have no idea which way is up. They do truly believe they are to blame.

By cutting them off from family and friends or any other form of support, the man exercises maximum control with no come back. She is totally at his mercy.

Many of these women have no phones, no access to the outside world to get help. Financial abuse is a given in these circumstances and even being able to put away a couple of pound is an almost impossible feat. He will control absolutely everything down to the last penny - he doesn't want her to escape, this is his ideal, why change what has taken years to build. He will protect what he has created.

These men are unhinged monsters.

TooMuchTVTooYoung · 24/06/2018 01:02

Offred Flowers

Fucks me off that poor women with few resources really do come at the bottom of the pile.

Offred · 24/06/2018 00:49

She called the police. As I said and because she had evidence in the form of physical injuries he was prosecuted for assault.

He still stalks her though, her broke her windows a few months ago and she had to move and was charged by the HA for the damage. She now needs to move again because he has found her and the HA won’t house her because of the debt re the broken windows.

The police are not interested because no-one saw him do it.

Terfulike · 24/06/2018 00:46

Ah I see. Well how did she leave him in the end then. Hope to findo out tomorrow. Nightx

Terfulike · 24/06/2018 00:43

Anyway I'm off now but back tomorrow if you're around. Interesting discussion which I sincerely hope will have helped at least someone consider their options.

Offred · 24/06/2018 00:43

No, I’m asking you how it applies to her when it would have been relevant I.e. when it was happening.

It’s not much use to women who are in the situation to say ‘in 5 years when you have friends get one of them to help you fill in forms now’

Offred · 24/06/2018 00:42

Yes, as I said. I am her friend now. 5 years later. When this relationship was happening she wasn’t allowed any friends and was living in a caravan on farmland.

Terfulike · 24/06/2018 00:42

Well if she's already left him that's different is this an imaginary friend as her circumstances keep changing!

Offred · 24/06/2018 00:40

Do you realise that many police officers still come to calls and spend time dissuading women from pressing charges? That still many times there is not enough evidence to act on the laws that exist because it is ‘he said she said’?