Anyone up to speed with the Lindsay Shepherd case (the Canadian TA)?

Crikey that audio recordings horrendous isn't it. She was so brave.

I thought this was an interesting summary of where things are:

www.thespec.com/opinion-story/8689667-lindsay-shepherd-s-law-suit-is-about-changing-the-rules/

I do like the hands across the aisles initiative though, what do other mns think?

In terms of policy labour is significantly less authoritarian than it has been for decade.

The way people behave in groups is different to the policy positions. I don’t think it’s explained by increasing authoritarianism in politics I think it is explained better by the tyranny of authoritarian individualism when people enter into tribal behaviours.

She says:

"In a University, all perspectives are valid."

he answers:

"That's not necessarily true."

sums it up really. I hope she is ok.

I remember Nick Cohen, in one of his books, describing Labour as "muddling along, trying to improve people's lives".

I think what we're seeing how are a whole lot of people who'd have been perfectly happy with that being put off by an increasingly authoritarian approach which results in them going after anyone who disagrees in an extremely agressive manner.

(Also, they have real difficulties understanding those who identify as being English, British etc as, for them, this is nationalism and can only ever be negative and harmful, meaning they tie themselves in all sorts of knots over it and, as with the poster above, alienate an element of their historical support.
Doesn't have much to do with Lindsay Shepherd I know, but Martin Kettle wrote rather a good piece on it here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/07/england-identity-politics-left-right ).

I do get the grooming. With tribalism grooming often happens when one of the opposition is in a vulnerable position and being rejected by their group and it’s motivated by scalp taking type thoughts...

I watched a lot of the interviews Lindsay did and thought ‘a lot of this is grooming behaviour’ TBH.

Five years ago, on the political compass Labour was actually rightwing though TBF. Do you mean you were centre left or you were Labour?

Labour to UKIP is not uncommon at all IME. UKIP has been very good at exploiting the economically insecure, whose interests have been neglected and abused for years. They have given people a narrative that has meaning in their experiences and for their lives. There is also, and has always been a left wing pro Brexit position.

I find it hard to relate to the idea that political principles and ideological beliefs would change based on the negative behaviours of others though. I’m interested in why people often seem to prioritise belonging to a group over the credibility of the principles and practices... I find it very hard to understand.

I’d change my view for example if there was evidence that the view was wrong in some way, my understanding of what it meant was incorrect, it had consequences I hadn’t fully appreciated etc etc There is no way I’d change my view just because other people in my supposed crowd were cunts to me.

I’ve had that a lot anyway but I never feel comfortable about being lumped in together with other people and group think anyway. Surely it’s the ideas that need to be wrong not the other people who identify themselves with them for someone to change their own ideas?

I have been following her case and wish her all the best of luck in her legal claim.

I liked Lindsey shepherds first video good bye to the left m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpg6P1PNWR8
I’m the same. Five years ago I would have definitely been on the centre left of British politics, yet last week I joined UKIP... You can refuse to debate and resort to name calling or listen to the reasoning and give it consideration I guess. I was once a Labour Party member. It’s a funny old world.

I think it says more about the state of the left. How can the suppression of free speech have ever become their battle cry? I keep finding myself agreeing with people I wouldn't have given the time of day to previously. I'm of the left and am starting to despise them, they've lost all sense of reality.

I don't mean "far right" I just mean someone who was already skeptical of SJW stuff and leaned towards Peterson (& Murphy) on the pronouns issue. She did state that she had no opinion on that issue when she played the video to her class, which could be true or it could be disingenuous.

@jgrobinson Sun 24-Jun-18 01:24:36

"Interesting to hear your insight blackdog. I haven't worked if she was a right-winger from the start, or whether she was driven to the right by the SJW response to her."

These days not being a far left SJW is the same as being Right Wing, Far Right, Alt-Right, Nazi, Fascist etc - hence why Peterson got grouped with Milo and Hitler in her disciplinary

I think she was a lefty before this whole thing happened, but I'm not surprised she's seeking to hear other voices, even the more "contorversial" ones. She's suing the university because after the apology there's been a toxic environment around her, with open hostility so she won't be able to build a career in academia, at least in Canada, because of the actions of her senior professors. I think JP is suing as well, not sure on what grounds but might be defamation (one of the woke professors compared him to Hitler...).

I read about the case here when it happened but somehow missed the outcome of the investigation and fact that there were no complaints This is horrifying. That poor young woman.

It led me to look into Peterson, with whom I disagree on various things. But who surprised me by being nowhere near as extreme as the Guardian had led me to believe.

She should have moved universities after the apology

She would have no chance of an academic career in Canada. Possibly she could have gone to the US, but even there most institutions would not hire her. So there's not much point doing a PhD.

That point also bears also on her political drift. Feminism won't provide a sustainable career, whereas the right-wing movement will.

Totally that. The lack of clarity everywhere is insane. One side is seeking clarity and the other side is demanding obfuscation. And when you have people like Morgane fecking Oger deliberately throwing their weight around, it’s even worse.

I don’t think the legal claim is a great idea. But if I squint a bit I can sort of see that it’s going to take ‘big’ legal challenges to change the course of Canadian legislation and it would be tempting to try and instigate. I don’t think she has a chance though. She should have moved universities after the apology and got on with it - but that’s probably projection!!!!

One part I do understand is being hamstrung by perceptions of legal responsibilities as a result of unclear laws...

It is the one point I have sympathy re the university over TBH.

It is interesting to consider in terms of the current mn debacle too. Like Wilfred Laurier, mn are attempting to curtail speech that is perfectly allowable in real life. The clip Lindsay showed was from a mainstream show. The university declared it unacceptable in the same way that mn are not allowing posters to discuss stuff that is in the mainstream media ( specifically the stuff where Susie Green publicized her child and their experiences). And trans activists often accuse people standing up for women’s rights if being right wing bigots.
Mnhq and Wilfred Laurier’s knee jerk reactions are not a million miles apart. Wilfred Laurier did apologize though.

I agree blackdog whilst lamenting the reasons for that! I lament that it is understandable how she has been vulnerable to the shift to the right and that part of that is characterisation by the left as being rightwing...

Hence ‘case study in radicalisation’

I also agree that non of that matters re whether her original actions were ‘unprofessional’...

I found the banging on about ‘scholarly academic standards’ re Peterson interesting given the lack of scrutiny given to the trans side and the infamous suicide stats - which absolutely do not pass muster according to the lengthy mansplain of peer review.

Mmm I actually do find the’what if’s’ interesting too though - largely because it is so non-U to dare not to prostrate yourself at the feet of the trans ideology, and so your choice of advocates are severely limited. So it’s... I dunno - tempting? when a group welcomes you with open arms and gees you up to dig your heels in. I actually think Lindsay’s story would have been easier to support unequivocally if she had migrated towards perhaps Meghan Murphy and Feminist Current, instead of being picked up by the right wing/ ‘free speech’ers.

I follow the UVic Womyn’s Centre too - they naturally leaned towards a woman centred solution after effectively being shut down by trans ideology - it’s ‘easier’ for me to align myself with that model, but it doesn’t mean that I’m not sympathetic with LS. In her position, she needed support and it was provided by a different group...

Lindsay Shepherd got lucky once. The reaction to Jordan Peterson by the admin was ridiculous and way out of line and I can't STAND Jordan Peterson as I know him as a men's rights activist.

However, if you continue to follow Lindsay, you'll see she says some pretty stupid things too.

I suppose they are two idiot ships that met in the night.

Oh yeah, I agree. Who she is, what she may or may not have become is irrelevant regarding what happened. In fact these judgements regarding guilt by association and ideology are part of the whole problem. The original issue was whether or not her behaviour was unprofessional.

I just find, as a separate issue, watching what is happening now interesting!

In a way though, is what she may or may not have become irrelevant though? Or even how she was then or what her intentions are? It's the wider picture. Universities come up with bullshit about no platforming being necessary to protect students "in their home" from views the student union/university as a whole deem to be undesirable, at that time. Even if universities are bodies that invite students to take courses, and kick them out when they are not adhering to their ideology, you'd have thought being seen as a place of learning, open debate and inquiry, developing minds would override that?

It makes me think back to the case of Patrick Harrington. A bnp member who was infamously a student at the very left wing Polytechnic of North London in the 1980s.