"In six months you can't tell that this person was male"

Angryattackkittens

On the flip side, sometimes I see someone and I think in my head 'thank you for being kind enough to let me know exactly who you are', IYKWIM! Maybe someone's myopia performs a useful function for society.

"There are these people called opticians, they can often help you with minor problems with your vision by providing the appropriate corrective lenses."

No, I certainly do not want anyone to go through entirely unnecessary cosmetic surgery. I find it mildly horrific to contemplate as an idea, let alone require anyone to do it as a pre-requisite to being supported.

But that's beside the point. Most people think that a transwoman is defined by the fact that they have had their penis removed, and make assumptions about what they should be entitled to do based on that error.

To object to the presence of a penis is not to require it be surgically removed.

And don’t most posters here want TW to undergo genital surgery?
No. I don't think anyone should have invasive surgery to "prove" their womanhood. It makes no odds to me what is in their pants.

I don't believe trans women are women. They are trans women. I'm happy to share space as long as I can get creepy perverts removed when needed. My concern is that self ID will stop that happening.

Resistance
'A surgically created vagina'

Not going to be naturally lubed is it?
Which is why most of them want to keep their special bit of kit.

A surgically created vagina will not - to put it bluntly - smell, feel or taste like a real one. A quick perusal of the Reddit fora for experiences of people who have slept with women and transwomen will tell you this.

Sciencelogic
Thanks for the flowers - my first on here!

Oops I meant deviation not deviance. Hope I dont get a strike for that!

Slothslothsloth

I agree that there are difficult aspects to this. However I dont think they are insurmountable. The greatest difficulty at the moment is the legislation is confused/confusing and certain prominent trans campaigners seem to be deliberately trying to make things even more confusing for the public as part of a concerted effort to push reform through by the back door. I myself have used mens toilets before when there were no other options and I was desperate. I went in because they were empty and I was discreet, fast, and a male friend watched the door. It doesnt matter too much if someone quietly pops into the toilets. It might, for example, matter if ten #### in heels sashay into a female toilet when they are highly unlikely to be at risk in the mens because they literally have daggers strapped to each foot. Thats just a random example.

We need

1. Clear rules on sex segregated spaces - I.e. the division is by sex alone.
2. People need to firstly police their own behaviour and understand and be respectful of why those rules were created in the first place, being mindful of the potential effect deviance can have on those the rules were designed to protect, whilst also acknowledging that on a situation by situation basis flexibility on all sides is necessary.
3. Certain sex segregated spaces allow for no flexibility at all eg supervision of children, prisons, refuges.

Adults who transition (and this is another reason why only adults should be allowed to make irreversible steps towards it) should understand that like all things in life your actions have consequences. It might mean that you have to access neutral/third spaces instead of sex segregated spaces.

[Norther]
for you for being strong. I am sure your daughter will absorb your positive vibes.

sloth there are a lot of things people could get away with if they tried but it doesn’t mean we should say it is right or not try to stop it. Lots of people get caught out by fraudsters or scammers who may come across as very plausible.

Norther
Agree, it is those separated spaces that are enshrined in law as protection for women and girls, for good reason.
Those spaces are necessary because of the behaviour of men. As we all know.
Surgery won't fix the problem
Pharma wont fix the problem
Girly fashion won't fix the problem
Long hair won't fix the problem

Trans ideology seems to insist it would improve people lives. For most, it won't.
But women and girls have innate strength and courage that should not be suppressed just to fit an ideology that ultimately won't fix anything for anybody.

My stance is surgery has no material effect on their sex whatsoever and spaces should be divided by sex.

Norther your post was interesting, but it makes me think of how theory and practice conflict. So in theory, of course sex segregation is the only kind of segregation that has any point, for the reasons you’ve mentioned.

In practice, though, enforcing this completely would a) be impossible; and b) if it somehow could be enforced, mean people like Paris Lees, who look very much like any other woman and quite possibly have had bottom surgery, are in changing rooms etc with men. And trans men like Fox Fisher, who again looks like any other man, would be in the women’s facilities. Which I think would make many women very uncomfortable too, not to mention Fox himself.

I am not sure of my own thoughts, by the way. I am sort of trying to work them out by typing them as they come to me - as you can perhaps tell.

I find it hard to believe someone has real gender dysphoria if they are keen to keep the genitals of the sex they claim to hate as surely every time you look at your genitals you are reminded of your biological sex.
I do think people who hate their bodies enough to do this are a very very small percentage of the population and that many of the men identifying as women but going down the "lady dick" route are cross dressers who find it kinky and who don't think of themselves as women at all, it's just a game..

Thanks Prawn!

A concise, powerful post, Norther. Applause.

Blimey Russ Abbott hasn’t aged well has he?

I dont think surgery legitimises trans people. If they wish to wear an outfit and have surgery (adults only) for either pleasure or to alleviate mental distress it doesnt bother me. There are all kinds of body modifications I think are a bit silly - like for instance making those big holes in your ear - but it is not my choice it is theirs. My stance is surgery has no material effect on their sex whatsoever and spaces should be divided by sex. We dont have different changing rooms for people who have had lipo and those who havent, or who have had heart bypass surgery, or who have had an organ transplant. We divide by sex for the simple reason that women are at risk because of our biology and also women navigate the world in ways that are informed by the fear of that threat. I know most trans people are not rapists etc. We are trying to teach our young girls to establish boundaries and to say no with confidence as vital steps on the journey to being recognised as complete people and trans ideology is in direct opposition to that. Additionally, and I think the most important one of all, though many may disagree, the biggest damage done by trans ideology is psychological. Yes there is a massive problem with differing genitals (trying to navigate mumsnet rules) in womens prisons, toilets etc, but bigger than that in my mind is the psychic harm from defining females by personality traits. If I am in a confined sex segregated space with a particular person (mumsnet guidelines again), I dont personally fear rape (mainly cos I am a nutter that lived on streets for two years and will happily fight men, even if I know I will lose) I get angry for the fact that that person in defining themselves has also in effect defined me and my daughter against my consent. That makes my blood boil.

Do I hope that one day men will start acting in such a way that single sex spaces dont have to exist? Absolutely! But we are a million miles away from achieving that and, despite what trans allies seem to suggest, trans ideology takes us further away, not closer to that ideal.

Testosterone leaves its mark.

In behaviour and in body.
Permanently.

All trans males would testify to that

I've read the article in The Times. It's odd that one of the men has chosen to go to the extreme of having facial feminisation surgery (and the description of what it involves really is rather horrific) but doesn't want to get rid of his penis due to the pleasant sexual experiences he has had with it. I would like to presume then, that he doesn't refer to himself as a woman or want to access women's spaces, but why then the need to look more outwardly feminine?

As an aside, how do ladyboys manage to look so convincing? Is this via surgery, or is it due to east asian bone structure being generally more delicate? And why can't we have ladyboys in the UK in the same way, why the need to be 'women' rather than something separate?

The picture looks like a bloke in a dress, to put it bluntly. Nothing wrong with that, men can wear what they want. But he does not look like a woman, whether he's had his or his penis chopped off and inverted or not.

Moss
I also don’t think trans folk should be lied to about the reality of surgery
This, sadly is very true. Surgery isn't an exact science.
The skills of the best surgeons are honed with competence, integrity and kindness, not money and unbridled ambition. Experimental procedures, trial and error are where many operations 'go wrong'.
Nip and tuck till they get it right?
On healthy individuals? No No No

I also don’t think trans folk should be lied to about the reality of surgery which merely creates a facsimile of the opposite sex genitalia at best.

I am another who says it is sad that anyone should feel the need for this sort of surgery and I certainly don’t think all trans should have it. I also don’t think males/y chromosomes should be in a female space penis or not.

I'm not criticising genitals created from a penis, I simply don't think they function as a woman's would.

I find it extremely sad that anyone wants to have extreme surgery because they are unhappy in their natural body. Removing healthy organs should only be done when other options have failed. Ideally we should move towards a culture in which people feel comfortable to present as they wish and will be accepted for who they are, e.g. a very feminine man without the need for us to pretend they are a woman.