"In six months you can't tell that this person was male"

i would want males to have genital surgery before being allowed into a female prison, womens refuge etc for safety reasons because i think being castrated generally renders males of most mammalian species as less aggressive and less likely to attack or display unwanted sexually aggressive behaviour. Its got fuck all to do with whether i think theyre women or not.

There is a need for men only spaces. Some men cant use unisex spaces, for example men from some religions or cultures.

Women will always choose the one for women and girls.

Sloth - one possibility would be to have women-only spaces and mixed-sex spaces. That would protect women from men but also mean there was an appropriate place for anyone.

I don't think there's any real need for men-only spaces.

I'm not playing semantics games of 'socially woman' or 'legally treated as a woman' or 'internally/mentally/inner-self is a woman'

Me either.

That doesn't mean I don't accept that sometimes cosmetic surgery will be the best thing available to alleviate someone's chronic distress. But I do worry about cosmetic surgeons with a god complex promoting unrealistic outcomes to people in this level of distress.

Like chemotherapy, this treatment may be effective, but is still relatively crude.

Granted that I have a particularly strong case of the uncanny valley effect being disturbing to me, but I feel like the fact that the surgeon is charging that kind of money for those results is outrageous, especially given that he keeps banging on about his superior sense of aesthetics.

That surgeon struck me as a bit Frankenstein like, all about his own ego. Sad that such skill (although I thought a lot of the work featured looked more like creating faces like dolls than female or even feminine faces) seems to be so rarely used for anything actually useful. Still I guess his facial feminisation work pays for his lifestyle in a way that facial reconstruction for children with congenital abnormalities would not.

I missed that part. Sure, put someone through major surgery that takes hours, rearrange their plumbing, and then send them home/back to a hotel immediately afterwards where if anything goes wrong they won't have medical staff and equipment on hand to take care of any complications. What could possibly go wrong?

Gender reassignment surgery isn’t cosmetic or reconstructive, but more like reorganization and, someday, could be done as an outpatient procedure, he said.

Really? As an outpatient? I find this difficult to believe. Surely the urethra surgery is major just on its own? I think it must be cosmetic and reconstructive as well.

All Silicon Valley has done is recreate a teenagers bedroom for adult males in apps for perpetuity.

Picassospaintbrush

Couldn't agree more.

A little bit of vitriol.

The vast majority of the population of this planet are real where you are. They didn't go anywhere.

There has been a bit of a blind alley diversion for a short time, but we are working our way through this....

Existentialism, the place your brain ends up when your water and your heat and light and your food are all at your fingertips...

AngryAttackKittens
It's surgery, not magic

I can't really understand why they keep pushing this. Surgery doesn't magically change you into a woman. An F on a passport doesn't magically change you into a woman. A GRC doesn't magically change you into a woman. Photoshop, being wolf whistled, no-one speaking up when you're in the female loo - none of it can magically change you into a woman.

I'm not playing semantics games of 'socially woman' or 'legally treated as a woman' or 'internally/mentally/inner-self is a woman'
I had someone try to tell me that hormones cause cell metaplasia and so they do literally become xx. It's unbelievable. Some people are just chucking every blatant lie at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I'm saying no. Not budging an inch. Be a proud Trans person. You can't buy womanhood (or buy your way out of it.)

rum, bum and concertina

www.amazon.co.uk/Rum-Bum-Concertina-George-Melly/dp/0708813976?tag=mumsnetforum-21

I have rum Picasso!
I'm here...

Mature male transitioners TBW? Yes....what's that all about? Anyone would think they have a hankering for the girly culture of bobby sox and kirby-grips thing....

jeez, bewilderness.

I have a book I have to start on this.

into the underworld I must go.

Can I leave a lifeline so you can haul me out again and revive me with fresh air and rum

Have you noticed how mature transtioners always seem to choose names popular in their grandchildren's generation?

What BOO32 said

Also anyone who isn't from the American deep south and uses the word "folk" is talking out of their bottom.

If you're born with a penis and you're an adult you're a man, if you're born without a penis and are an adult you're a woman. Wear a skirt, wear jeans, wear a suit, pick flowers, ride a motorbike, nobody cares.

@ErrolTheDragon I read that article. Interesting.

@Norther excellent post at 'Fri 22-Jun-18 19:47:57'

I don't want *anyone to have life changing surgery unless they want it, understand what it will and will not provide and are safe to under go it. But no surgery will make a person change their biological sex. And if people are being told that no one will be able to tell after surgery or whatever, then that is not necessarily true and is very unkind to the person undergoing the procedure.

My husband and I had lots of fertility treatment, the vast majority of it unsuccessful. The doctors were required to point out just what our chances of a successful outcome were.

So with any treatment or surgery, patients should know the reasonable outcomes. I am not against anyone having surgery either. But I am certainly not advocating for people to have it.

It's surgery, not magic. I wonder if surgeons are setting realistic expectations, most plastic surgeons don't seem to.

Thanks for the link, errol.

Two obs: firstly, didnt they do well to find shoes that size? I had a friend at school who struggled to find nice shoes and she was a size 9. Secondly, the surgery just doesnt work - everything is on a different scale that is immediately obvious.

Here's a sharetoken link to The Times piece mentioned upthread if anyone wants it (I didn't finish reading it myself tbh)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/interview-with-jordan-deschamps-braly-transgender-womens-favourite-surgeon-590btqcxp?shareToken=3d68f1ff6d13d8789fbfda24d6030780