Friday

Daim is entirely untrustworthy, and has apparently had an epiphany on the "Would you say yes if..." thread where someone repeated the same thing people have been saying for months, and suddenly daim thinks it makes sense.
It is an absolute masterclass in gaslighting if anyone was confused about the term means, keeping those who can be bothered to engage permanently off balance. Daim has as good as said they are doing it for shits and giggles.

We think in general we're going to have to delete this kind of thing. Generally speaking you could use the word 'people', 'transpeople', or even 'TRAs', if that's the group you are referring to. In this instance, you could probably even have said 'goady trolls

But this is waffle and bunkum in that it does not address my issue at all!

I'm perfectly capable of saying trans people when I mean all people with a trans identification.

I'm perfectly capable of using TRA when I mean transactivist (who may or may not be trans themselves).

I'm perfectly capable of using goady trolls when I encounter or wish to refer to a bunch of arseholes, however they identify.

But there are times when I need to refer to a particular subset of trans people and those times will not be infrequent because I want to talk about single sex spaces, services and legal protections. It's blindingly obvious that I will need such a term if I am to be allowed to articulate any pro-woman argument at all on this site. Because I'll be talking about one sex subset of trans people and not the other at all.

Apparently, I am not allowed to use any term that includes a reference to the sex of this group (eg male, man) because it upsets them. Ok. Fine. But, by the same token, I am not prepared to use any term that appropriates my sex for this group (eg female, woman) because it upsets me.

So what, pray, is an acceptable term? Because without one, I'm going to have to post stupidities such as [group we don't currently have a mutually acceptable term for]. I'm not being goady. I'm not using forbidden terms. But where is the term that accommodates my principles and feelings?

AntiqueOlive I and others have tied ourselves in knots trying to work this all out so we don't get strikes. Trying to wade through all of this is like swimming through treacle poured into a muddy lake.

spontaneousgiventime

quoted from your mums net email quote

We think in general we're going to have to delete this kind of thing. Generally speaking you could use the word 'people', 'transpeople', or even 'TRAs', if that's the group you are referring to. In this instance, you could probably even have said 'goady trolls'."

so, probably? Is that probably for sure? or, we don't really know but you could try it and see?!

mebbies aye or mebbies naw?

Yep, so I could have posted goady troll but acronym is a no-no. I don't think any of "those who don't quite have a name yet" would be pleased at being referred to as goady trolls in any context.

Daim is reporting me.

For actual fucking fuck's sake.

It's reminiscent of those westerns where the bad guy makes some poor sod jump about while they shoot bullets into the ground at their feet and yell "Dance, sucker!"

I see Gibberish is back.

FloralBunting This is copied from the email this morning with nothing redacted.

"We just wanted to drop you a line as we have had a few reports about your use of the term 'acronym' (in place of 'TIM'), specifically in the OP of this thread.

We think in general we're going to have to delete this kind of thing. Generally speaking you could use the word 'people', 'transpeople', or even 'TRAs', if that's the group you are referring to. In this instance, you could probably even have said 'goady trolls'."

Hold on a sec. We can't use banned terms, and we refuse to use activist-approved terms that are blatant lies. So some of us are using (acronym) and [redacted] as a way of still being understood while not breaking the rules.
So we're going to get deleted for essentially resisting being forced to say 'Trans women are women' and all the variations thereof?

LangCleg I couldn't agree with you more. In an email I sent to MN I said I would not use TW, or the longer versions as it takes away my sex. I don't know how "men presenting as woman" would go down but that is something I could use. I won't agree to anything that appropriates my sex.

spontaneous

Asked several times on every Site Stuff thread. Others have too. Have been ignored by all the clarifications and updates.

I don't mind not using the acronym specified. I don't mind using a term that does not reference the sex of the group concerned. But I will not use any term for that group which appropriates the vocabulary of my sex. I don't think that's unreasonable. It's the same principle for both sets of views.

If MNHQ gives me a term for that group that does not reference anybody's sex, I will use it. Until then, I'm going to have say things along the lines of [group there is no mutually acceptable term for] - I should hope this will not result in a sanction when I have repeatedly asked for a term I can use.

Ah thank you Scarlet - must have missed that.

Just to let you know. I received a warning although not a strike today for using 'acronym'. MN Have said in certain contexts it's a way to circumnavigate the rules.

LangCleg You've just made a point I forgot to mention. MN have said they don't trawl threads so it is better to post about things on site stuff. I know some messages regarding this have not been answered so the email address I used is [email protected]

Oi, ACRONYMerf, you've nicked my word from the 'other' site!

Still here. I don't post much, though.

One thing that has been made clear, attempts to circumnavigate the rules will result in a strike.

In the absence of an acceptable term for [we all know who I mean] that neither upsets them by referencing their sex nor offends me by appropriating my sex, I don't see what choice I have other than attempt to circumnavigate the rules.

I've asked MNHQ directly on all the threads here and in Site Stuff for such a term and said that I will use it when provided.

None forthcoming.

Hola

stealthsquirrelnutkin Yes, we can appeal. In the first email (refusal of my appeal) MN stated they are always happy to re look at moderating decisions. I think if you genuinely believe your strike has been unfair and can give a good and valid reason then MN will be reasonable. I'm not saying I think the new rules are fair - I don't, but if you have been sanctioned and you think unfairly, do appeal.

So it is possible to appeal against unfair strikes?

That's good to know. Especially when the guidelines are nebulous, and some decisions do not seem fair.

I know we are allowed to say transpeople, but are we still allowed to refer to them as male bodied and female bodied transpeople? Would that description make it clear that the body being referred to was the basic underlying structure, irrespective of any surgical and pharmacological adaptations? Or is it supposed to indicate the opposite, in which case the description becomes meaningless since the new trans umbrella includes people who do nothing at all to change their outer presentation.

I am still thinking about BettyDuMondes post Thu 21-Jun-18 18:55:14
on www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3282760-would-you-back-self-id-if?pg=8&messages=100 where she advocates for a selection of theoretical genders to chose from (none of which can be named man/woman/girl/boy/male/female - these terms are to be used to describe biological sex alone)

She has put a lot of consideration into the proposals, I'd like her ideas to be included in the upcoming parliamentary consultations.

Thanks for the congrats. To be fair I was furious and made it known, but I really did feel I had a good case and then an email from MN this morning about something else really did seal the deal. However, MN were fair and listened, the first time maybe not so much but the second appeal they did. We can't be expected to know if what we are posting is against the rules if they don't state as much. That was my argument and was accepted. One thing that has been made clear, attempts to circumnavigate the rules will result in a strike.

Loving all the delurkers! Yes yes yes to stepping up and speaking out. This is a relay race

That's great spontaneous