Handmaidens

Just keep posting your thoughts and opinions. Question people. Reply to people. Piss some people off. Delight others. That’s what it’s all about.

“But if I have offended people I am sorry.”

You haven’t offended anyone. Keep posting.

BertrandRussell - I'm sorry! I wasn't meaning to be passive aggressive either. Argh! No idea how to respond.

Rufustheyawningreindeer - thank you for the kindness. I was the first person to say I didn't like the word "handmaiden" which I think has been taken as deliberate trolling or something. That really wasn't my intent - I thought I was just joining in a conversation and I'm used to discussions about language being a thing, and thought there were some interesting follow up comments from folk too. But if I have offended people I am sorry.

“I'm sorry if I caused offence and looking through this section I see it is a very specific interest area and with a particular close knit group of posters so it probably wasn't appropriate to engage as an outsider. Apologies again.”

Don’t be silly. One person said something disobliging. One!. Don’t do the classic “Oh, they’re all cliquey and mean on FWR” Other people, including me, engaged and discussed with you. And there are plenty of different opinions- you could have posted more if you had wanted to.

Well, that's the thing, randoms on YouTube have one hell of a powerful reach these days.

I was interested in some of the comments underneath one of the videos that discussed gay men and their 'genital preferences' because it's the first time I've seen anyone approach that at any length, as opposed to the relentless focus and 'distaste' for women actually being lesbians by these people.

And the persistent refrain is "Of course you don't have to sleep with anyone you don't want to. But you should reflect on that..."

It gives them enough plausible deniability to point to the first sentence and pretend the coercion in the second sentence isn't really there.

Yep

Go for it flora

I personally am worried about all the comments re genital preferences being transphobic

I appreciate that it seems to be some randoms on social media but that doesnt mean that those sorts of statements can't be harmful

alaaya

I cant remember what you said but do stay, it is good to hear the different views of posters even if people dont agree with your opinions

womanformallyknownaswoman - for what it's worth, a name change. I don't keep the same name on MN for long although to be fair I've never posted on feminism chat before. I'm sorry if I caused offence and looking through this section I see it is a very specific interest area and with a particular close knit group of posters so it probably wasn't appropriate to engage as an outsider. Apologies again.

Well, yes. It would be tremendous to move away from all the self censoring pretzeling ourselves up about whether we all approve of certain words that seems to be what an un-named group of people have deemed is the current purpose of FWR on MN.

And, I don't know, discuss the videos posted by women who could reasonably be described as acquiescing to the prevailing transactivist narrative?

Oh and i dont have to objectively justify

I think all sorts of things/people are stupid fucking twunts

My ipad for example

In which case lass you can also use my patented catch all insult as it will work for people who tell you that you are colluding

Its not gendered and you can say it in your head as loudly as you like

I would suggest not typing it AT posters on here or saying it out loud at work

But apart form that...have at it

For what its worth ive never used handmaiden and I can't see how i ever will...im just gonna stick with 'stupid fucking twunt' as it works for me

Well possibly if one can objectively justify what is so stupid about the behaviour. I was told only this week that I collude in my own oppression. I'm not prepared to treat comments like that seriously.

I saw a thing on Twitter from a women's march in Canada-can't remember where-basically saying you weren't welcome if you didn't sign up to "Trans women are women" and "Sex Work is Work"

This young woman says she was brought into sex work by her momentum partner and is now HIV positive.

But prostitution is empowering! vomit I just peak manned for the second time today.

I am not in the least bit surprised that pimps have joined Momentum. Lisa Muggeridge was right when she said that rightist men and leftist men will argue all day about the right place to position the boot on women's necks.

Seems a shame that this thread has just turned into a 'what people shouldn't say' thread

I do like listening and learning here

For what its worth ive never used handmaiden and I can't see how i ever will...im just gonna stick with 'stupid fucking twunt' as it works for me

Just thought I'd point out that the user who made the first comment on this post, objecting to the term Handmaiden, is a one-day old account that has made 4 comments - all on this thread, and all about how horrible women are to other women.

I could make up it's a classic divide and conquers tactic -or a strange co-incidence - now about that video...

herfemaleness thanks for the book recc - about half way through Ch 1 and v interesting.

In return: have you come across The Authoritarians by Robert Altemeyer (another psychologist). Fascinating read as to what makes some people so drawn to following authoritarian leaders.

Ironically, it’s not a word I use. But I object very strongly to being told that I have to agree with everything other women say and do. There are plenty of women who do well out of the patriarchy. Many of them don’t realize it. But there are those who do, and use their position to make life worse for other women. And those are the ones, the Ann Coulters, the Katie Hopkins, the Melanie Phillips who need calling out.
Nor me. I think of them as collaborators, or collabos for short.

Now, about this here video...

I do think labeling of all kinds has got us where we are, and I don't just mean here.

Avoiding labels does force a more nuanced consideration of points of view.

I don't mean facts like sex, obviously.

I think that is rather a naive correlation, Lass. Not like you at all

I find both terms objectionable. I think neither add anything to the debate.

Both are used as trump cards by people who think they are intellectually or morally superior to the other party. Both are intended to silence an alternative view.

I think there is a strong correlation

Everyone's allowed to take things a bit easy on a sunny Friday afternoon!

I think that is rather a naive correlation, Lass. Not like you at all.

Has anyone ever seen the invocation:

Handmaidens die in a fire

Anyone?

I think the pro-handmaiden posters primarily objected to being told T* was not a slur. And a lot of them said they didn't want the term banned anyway.

I think most people defending the word here are quite upfront about it not being a neutral word and in fact openly using it as a pejorative and a criticism.

As opposed to the wide-eyed innocence of saying 'When I say T*, I'm using a neutral term and it has nothing to do with anyone dying in a fire or being lynched, honest'.

I've seen criticism of those who fit the handmaiden role, but I've yet to see someone requiring them to be taken out and shot as quislings, which would probably seem to be a natural consequence if the motivations behind the two terms were the same.

And to be clear, I would unreservedly condemn anyone advocating violence against those with whom they have a disagreement.