Trans murder rates

Do you like my anti screenshot system? I do believe it but find it extraordinary that it needs stating. Still, since we are annoyed at the lack of condemnation for the bomb threat it does make sense.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

One murder is too many

This has been fascinating. Thank you all for contributing. I too would be very interested to know the motivation behind the murders, who the murderers were men and the stats in context - are trans sex workers more likely to be attacked than other sex workers etc. These things only work in context.

one murder is too many

And since it is VERY clear that different places have different problems stop using stats from elsewhere to make a point here!

One murder is too many

Yes, although it's all modelled on earlier stuff, for example the fable of The Scorpion and the Frog.

So how Amnesty do it then?

It means that women should campaign against men's violence and transwomen get to police the women's campaigning so they do it in the right way.

What on earth does "standing together" mean?

I would hope that policy is not solely based on stats but on need

How can need be established with an evidence base? Are you saying that actual evidence based policy is a mistake and should be replaced with a subjective assessment of need? How will that need be assessed? How can we protect against ‘need’ being defined by pressure groups behind closed doors? To take a medical analogy we do not treat patients based on opinion (well, we are trying our hardest to stamp it out) because it turned out, when we did research, that a lot of assumptions and beliefs about treatments were just wrong - and patients were dying (routine use of steroids in cardiac indications for example.) evidence based medicine is a much better way of treating patients.

and again I will say which none of you seen to want to acknowledge when they is competing need then there needs to be discussion and debate about how to accommodate those needs

Let’s be very clear about what happens when a want and a need collide. The need takes preference.

What you’re implying here is that women’s needs for safety should be compromised in some sort of negotiation. Many women on this board have expressed their opinion that NO is not the start of a negotiation. Women have rights to sex based protections enshrined in law and we will resist any degradation or removal of them.

When it comes to other alleged ‘need conflicts’ we get into child safeguarding as a topic. And there there is NO compromise. When it comes to child safeguarding rules, anything that will deliberately or inadvertently degrade or weaken those rules needs to be rejected out of hand.

I do hope that’s a stance you agree with? That child safeguarding is non negotiable? And that women’s rights to safety are non negotiable?

If not, it would be good if you could clarify exactly where you feel the conflicts are between women’s rights to safety/child safeguarding and the ‘needs’ you are talking about. And how you feel those needs outweigh current child safeguarding rules and the laws that protect women’s safety.

I will say which none of you seen to want to acknowledge when they is competing need That's cos we are all tired of trying to have a discussion that results in us being labelled TERF and having all of those nasty Tweet threats.

As you say, that one sentence is the root cause of the current 'war' - one that is continuing to rage because women persist in demanding that the discussion happens without the heavy handed word censorship that would render the whole thing unintelligible.

How would you suggest the discussion takes place if it cannot start with the basic fact that every transwoman is male and every transman is female?

Stats are always importent until they don't prove your point then as like governments they are discarded. I would hope that policy is not solely based on stats but on need and again I will say which none of you seen to want to acknowledge when they is competing need then there needs to be discussion and debate about how to accommodate those needs. This is the whole point of all of this but it seems to have become this game everyone likes to play and no one wants to end.

I think the statistics matter in this case because actually in the UK at least, trans people aren't getting murdered for being trans. There are 12 overall, we have no idea how many are because they were trans but there's nothing to suggest they were murdered because they were trans, if you take into account there might be some domestic violence, or perhaps again sex work. There can only be the odd one off incident, and whilst the one murder is very tragic it's not really a sign that trans people are getting killed for being trans.

The majority of murders are against sex workers in with America, again is that because they are trans or is it because they were sex workers? The statistics matter because if someone genuinely wants to prevent murders of trans people then they will want to know a) where and b) why

Trans murder stats are often quoted by trans activists to prove to the world why TERFS are so horrible, as if there's a direct link between being a terf and commuting murder, when that's clearly not the case. Instead these people could be targeting male violence, against all people and perhaps helping all sex workers.

Ah, I see. Moss ! I responded to that post too

Of course the stats matter.

You could argue that the suicide stats for young people were misrepresented to increase them for a specific purpose. Puberty blocker drugs have such severe lifelong side effects and 80% of children questioning gender identity end up reconciled. So there can be no medical rationale for treating ANY child with blockers. The idea that one must treat or suicide is the most likely outcome is a direct pressure on the risk/benefit assessment of treating a minor with those drugs. The effects are sonsevere that you can only justify it if death is the likely outcome of non treatment.

Numbers and their perception are powerful things.

Curious Bespin said the numbers don’t matter - but they do when they are being used to misrepresent the situation and policies are being put in place because of misrepresentation. This ‘extreme vulnerability’ is given as justification why women and girls should be put at risk.

Statistics seem to matter until they are proved untrue then suddenly statistics don’t matter at all Who said that?

It's a truism that stats can be manipulated.

It's true that the stats in this case seem to suggest that TRA claims are unsubstantiated, re Brazil as elsewhere.

It is true that many crime stats are complete bollocks.

But it remains true that stats are what we have and that we should always take any assumptions made based on them should always be taken with a healthy dose of salt!

Yes, Moon. It's the misuse of the stats to further a distorted agenda that is the crux of the matter.

Bespin, in all honesty, I'm not that up for a protracted 'discussion' with you, as so far I have only seen attempted derails and strange posts that attempt to ape other people's points without any clear focus on the rights of women, which is what this section of MN is for. Do you have a point on this thread other than "We shouldn't be concerned about inaccurate stats, we should be focusing on what I think is appropriate"?

Statistics seem to matter until they are proved untrue then suddenly statistics don’t matter at all

Yes that as always been a thing that as bothered me moon, we should not equate our issues with that of others in. Other country's as the number of issues they face are many and varied. We are often forgetful of our Western European point of view though we should always attempt to highlight there plite and work. With them to improve there situation. I find this also true in relation to the current issues in Russia with lgbt.

Is there anything left to discuss?

We have ascertained that the most often published numbers are often misleading and that trans individuals are no more likely to be murdered than anyone else, less likely than women, and that no poster here is any less disgusted by one murder than another!

I think that answered OPs initial question and more!

I think it's totally off the way that trans activists appropriate the plight of trans sex workers in South American in order to further their own 'we are the mostest oppressed people evah' agenda.

Munroe Bergdorf did it recently with their 'statistically I only have 4 years left to live' tweet. Yes, that would be true if they were a prostitute and lived in a Brazilian favela. But they don't. They wrote that tweet for dramatic effect.

Yes I totally agree now do you want to discuss the murder rates or are you going to continue to not contribute to the thread.

Nope, other than being a member of MN, not a members only club. It's just one of those things that members who repeatedly do the 'ignore the man behind the curtain and talk about what I want to talk about' on every thread they post on, don't really contribute anything substantive to the conversation.

Hi FloralBunting totally I'm. Also a regular been here a number of months don't always post but didn't realise there was a members. Only. Discussion

Curious I. Agree with this the whole. Fight as been created in such a way that both sides are simply defending positions and that now it will be hard. To actually. Find solutions to the genuine issues that have been raised as people are finding more. And more issues to attack each other with non of the original issue have been resolved as we are too busy mobing onto the next

Bespin that was my point, poorly made, I grant. Stats can say pretty much what you want them to say and any murder is abhorrent.

However trying to address the often grossly inflated and or misapplied figures that many transactivist posts/sites/organisations isn't a quibble. Yes, it becomes defensive, often obscures the point being made as the feminist tries to point out the issue and gets mired in defending their position.

That is what I find the most invidious aspect of the 'fight' we have been sucked into. It shouldn't bloody exist! No man or woman, no matter their personal 'identification' or sexuality, is being benefited by this. So you have to wonder why transactivists continue to work so bloody hard at it. What do they gain?