Can we discuss

I agree with leaving posts to stand so that readers can see what has been said. The only option being deletion/banning is increasingly inappropriate here. There needs to be a moderation policy and system that is capable of more nuance and flexibility as per many of the suggestions in this thread.

Appropriation is a huge issue. At the moment I’m seeing a lot of appropriation of people with intersex conditions and DSDs - basically they are being used as a ‘gotcha!’ Device. The average post is usually:

Some random Bad Science
Science rebutted and explained by one of our actual scientist MN posters
Aha! but what what about people with this condition - and then a link to something which is usually an individual case study or has a picture of someone’s genitalia on.

I am really, really uncomfortable with this as a geneticist. It’s appropriation of a community who do not want be be dragged into this. It’s got a freak show feel to it and as someone who has spent a significant part of her career investigating how human development can go wrong I am well aware that while we talk about such cases in dry terms, each one is a person entitled to dignity.

I’m also seeing a lot of appropriation of infertility/hysterectomy etc and that’s just awful. It’s awful to the individual affected and it’s awful to anyone suffering in general.

I’m also seeing milder but still annoying stuff like oh but if you have hormone treatment you can have PMS, it’s just headaches and mood swings. No. You. Can’t.

It’s wholesale appropriation.

Now what do we DO about it? I’m with ROwantrees on this one in that my stance is let it stand in some circumstances . Some of the comments I’ve seen have been jaw droppingly awful and the rest of the thread has been a reaction to them. Removing the comment makes the rest of the thread make no sense.

It’s a difficult one. I understand why MNHQ have a policy of deletion - if that comment has been in any other thread then I think that would have been appropriate. What concerns me is that deletions on these specific threads does allow what goady/trolly posters say to be hidden after the fact. It’s a get out for them.

Agrona
Thank you for your support and kind words.

The deleted post wasn't shocking to me as it is a belief I have seen expressed before. I have engaged with a couple of other trans women posters who have also seemed keen to align their experience with women who are childless due to infertility or neccesary medical interventions. They also talked about their pain and seemed oblivious to the impact their comments and claims would have on others.

The lack of empathy was and is striking.

I was shocked the first time that I saw this (it was a few months ago and I was also new to the nature of the debate),

I was also upset the first time I heard someone (Rebecca Root on Victoria Derbyshire?) make the argument that some women didn't have uteruses, because they had hysterectomies, and so trans women who also don't have uteruses (because they are born with male reproductive systems) are also similarly women.

My upset was two fold:

1. it touched a personal raw nerve. LIke some other younger women I have met, having a total hysterectomy did really affect my sense of self. In other situations I would be (and have been) happy to discuss this in terms of body confidence, sexuality and self esteem. It really can help if women share these experiences, if they are able to. There can be overwhelming feelings of isoloation.

It seems at the moment this isn't a safe place, some people are pouring over posts, trying to score cheap points.

The Gyny Cancer charities all share women's stories, they are important voices.

2. and for me, this is the strongest reaction, perhaps surprising for other people who have been so supportive and understanding:

IT IS REALLY, BLOODY POOR LOGIC & CRITICAL THINKING!

Its frustrating that on this basis alone such statements aren't shown up to be nonsense and de-bunked. Perhaps we won't have to hear them repeated then.

So, I think this is best challenged.

I do understand that this was a difficult call for MN to make.

I have had some good communication wth the Mods, who are incredibly busy dealing with reports. They do understand how I feel.

There was a poster who was, they have determined, trolling. The troll tried to provoke and goad other regular posters and showed a complete disregard for the talk guidelines and the spirit of Mumsnet.

I am going to start a thread about how important Ithink it is that women's experiences of hysterectomies and infertility are not appropriated and why this matters.
(not straight away though)

I know other women feel similarly. @Munchausenslovelyhorse already has some great ideas.

Hopefully in sharing this together we might feel more empowered to express our truth and assert our right to challenge heartless appropriation of uniquely female experiences.

I don't want to give the troll any more power, so its better, as MN have agreed, that a separate discussion is started.

#sex matters
#we need to talk about women and girls

I am really sorry this happened R0wantrees. The deleted post was shocking in it's selfishness and dismissal of women's experience. May I say how much I admire your fortitude?

O no its a good suggestion and am definitely thinking how best to do one. I want to check in with munchausenslovelyhorse and the other women who have raised similar concerns. I know Munch has some ideas about the best hashtag (she came up with #ManFriday) so I want to check in with her first.

I was feeling a bit raw this morning, but all good now.

I will start a thread exactly as you've described.

Just need to think it through.

I'm sorry R0wan. Yes, I wasn't clear. I certainly didn't mean to send you looking for anything.

I was thinking of a thread as a way of recording what had happened, as it was lost to deletion.

When I said 'this happening' I meant instances where experiences that are uniquely female have been claimed. Such as has been done with periods and breastfeeding as well as infertility.

But I see that's not quite right, because it's different when these claims are made about infertility. It's not just 'transwomen have this condition too' (ie periods) but rather 'because a male person is trans, they have this condition' (female infertility). A direct equivalence.

So anyway, it wasn't a good idea for a thread. But the hashtag you mention is a very good idea.

Stilettosandan0venglove
Collection of what happening? Sorry, I'm not sure I understand,

I don't really want to go looking for instances when trans women have claimed equivilence with women who have had hysterectomies or are similarly infertile and pained by this.

It happens, fairly regularly because its a belief held by many people who are trans women.

I know there will though soon be a number of women asserting #stopappropriatingourhysterectomies (or similar)!

This was my small stand yesterday, I was absolutely fine to make it and read the reply, It was an important statement for me to make.

I feel in bits after what happened afterwards.

R0wan could you perhaps start a thread to collect together instances of this happening?

I know it is not the same as seeing it in context, but still it would be very illuminating.

They made a point of using a name that would be immediately recognized as the pbp.

Firstly because we believe the poster in question was a troll posting in bad faith,

Given the number of trolls posting in bad faith, hectoring disabled women, mocking women, lecturing women, I admit to being delighted to hear that they are sometimes recognized.

My relief that the correct conclusion was eventually reached does not exactly speak well of current trust levels, does it?

It took quite a long time to identify the poster as a troll. There was plenty on the Spartacus thread to conclude this.

I'm in total agreement with you there, I'm just relieved that the assumption has not now become that any poster identifying themselves as trans must be assumed to be acting in good faith.

I agree Angry but i had believed this to be the case late last night when they joined the S p a r t a c u s thread and seemed intent on goading individuals. I reported them with specific concerns.

This morning I had an email from MN which said they did not think (at that point this was the case). This and having read the banned poster's comments re women's biological realities, prompted my statement and request that the poster consider it.

That MN subsequently concluded theposter was a troll posting in bad faith is great. I know it takes time. They were banned after additionally flouting the rules.

The deletion of this specific post though has wider significance.

The other posts by the 'troll' remain.

All of the comments by me and other women subsequently in respect of this particular post make little sense.

They matter and the significance is lost.

I think a big part of how MN discussions are significant is that threads remain relatively intact. Unlike FB Twitter etc, posters can't delete their own posts. They are there to be read by others.

Firstly because we believe the poster in question was a troll posting in bad faith

As much as I disagree with the decision not to reinstate the comment, it's reassuring to see that at least the mod team recognizes the fact that the deleted commenter was a troll coming here to rile people up and not a decent and honest person who deserves consideration and deference.

by way of current example:

mobile.twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/1009046416046555136

All women who have had hystectomies (for what ever reason and with whatever consequence) have had their experiences appropriated... repeatedly.

That this can also include the experience of being childless as a consequence is just a more powerful demonstration of why this is painful.

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the role gyny cancer played in my experiences. I am very fortunate. It was caught early by chance. My prognosis is good. i have had some excellent support through both the NHS and the charities dedicated to supporting women.

The deleted post did not appropriate my experience: the poster said they had empathy for me as they were also an infertile woman and this caused them pain knowing they won't be able to have the family they dreamt of since they were young. That this causes them pain and they hope to adopt.

This comment is theirs alone, it has nothing to do with my experience. I believe they may feel sympathy for me. I don't seek that. I don't believe they have empathy and I think this is the important point.

As I commented, in response:

With respect, our experiences are not the same. Please do not claim they are.

2 important separate issues here.

We need a way of making it clear that we'd prefer posters didn't engage with obvious trolls including not reporting them when they've made an outrageous post so the post stands. Essentially a 'goady activist do not engage' statement ideally from one of the well recognised posters.

The trans activists repulsive statements about women who have had hysterectomies is worth a separate thread. I find it deeply offensive to be told I'm no more a woman than a transwoman (is this an allowable term still?)

Rowan I didn't see the original posts but got the gist, it is abhorrent for your experience to be appropriated

this isn't about me MN, its about women who want to be able to demonstrate why it is important to be able to have our lived experiences as women respected

This is the the source of my distress over the last few days.

I believe this is very difficult for most people affected with cancer to read.

The actual source of distress for me though is that it seems those who are supportive of this position seem to have so much power and access. (the person whose quote is attached to CRUK and in the Daily Mail is a US based well-known TRA)

I have since my diagnosis been involved with raising awareness of gyny cancer and advocating for improved services, so I have some specific awareness of the possible implications of this lobbying.

This is a time that many women posting here (myself included) feel disempowered and disenfranchised whilst having something of value to say.

Deleting the post does nothing to protect women who have had hystectomies, are infertile or who have had gyny cancer. It only protects the poster and those who may have a similar belief and likewise lack empathy for for women's experiences.

I stand by Ro! MN just do as she asks! You capitulate to bloody men quick enough!

I dont have anything useful to add but just want to stand by Rowan

Hi @EstherMumsnet

Thanks for replying to me here.

There wasn't anything that was said in the deleted post that hasnt been said previously and likely again.

eg on this thread, when a poster making similar statements was engaged with (I think this was the first time that I shared my circimstances):
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3214354-T?

If the deletion is because the poster was a troll, can I quote the deleted post without fear of being deleted? Given the new guidelines, this is important. I would of course be quoting it responsibly and with consideration for others. I also have acute awareness of the possible impact this may have on women in similar circumstances to mine.

Also, if this is the case (the troll aspect being key to the deletion) will their posts on the S p a r t a c u s thread where other women's experiences are appropriated also be deleted? I think a number of women objected to this.

In repsonse to the comments on the other thread I simply described the background to my hysterectomy. I realise its more perhaps more shocking to other people but its part of who I am. I don't share it to shock or be treated any differently to another women who has had significant experiences as a direct consequence of their biology. Other women will have different reasons for hysterectomies. Some of us will choose to discuss this. Many of us are fed up of this experience being appropriated.

I also think that if MN believes the deleted post is so distressing to women who are infertile or who have had gyny cancer that it needs to be deleted, this is a very low bench mark, especially on a site which is primarily aimed at mothers.

To reiterate though, I do understand that this is a difficult situation to moderate.

I would like some advice if I am able to quote the comment on this site.
I think this matters.

Many thanks

I also wonder whether my requests have been given equal time and consideration as those who believe that posts on this board are transphobic or offensive to people who are transgender.

It is difficult not to believe that my requests and those who have posted here and on the other thread receive less attention and respect.

I do understand how difficult moderating is on this board at this time.