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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lessons from history

35 replies

Norther · 19/06/2018 12:32

I want to talk about a book I read years ago that really changed the way I live my life and cintinues to give me courage when I feel daunted by doing the right thing. Little thank you first to KaiserThiefs for inspiring this thread.

It is called something like 'women of the third reich'. An american student who was fluent in german and couldnt understand how so many ordinary people had been complicit in the holocaust and was certain she would have been different decided to do a research project interviewing women who had lived in germany throughout the whole of the third reich (is that 33 to 45, can't quite remember). She interviewed jewish survivors, nazi party members, resistance, those for and against etc. It was fascinating. It was not how you would expect. There was a nazi who had refused to comply with orders to I think round up jews because she disagreed with it. The interviewer said how could you dare. She said everyone was used to me. I was always very outspoken I never changed from before the war to during. Conversely, there were people who hated the nazis but collaborated out of fear. Her conclusion was, people who stand up fof the small things are the most likely to stand and be counted when the potential repercussions get more serious I.e. if you cant stand for what is right when you are facing a few abusive words online, dont think for a second youll do it when a gun is pointed at your head. To those who say save yourself for the big battles, concede the small points. No! Because that is where the battle is won and lost.

Another point from that, your allies come from surprising quarters. Accept their kinship on the values you share without compromising those you dont. On a tangent from this but still related, find commonality with those who should be our allies but who dont call themselves feminists - there will be single issues they can relate to. Sex and gender might bore them but certain teachers in the girls swimming changing rooms wont etc.

OP posts:
FermatsTheorem · 19/06/2018 14:23

I think Free is right - sadly, none of us know which way we'd go until the gun was to our heads. (Or, even more scarily, the gun was to our family's heads).

Having said that, I don't think it's a symmetrical situation. Capitulate on the small stuff for the sake of an easy life, and the odds that you'll buckle on the big stuff are probably 95%. Dig your heels in on the small stuff, and the odds for the big stuff possibly become closer to 50-50.

Southfields · 19/06/2018 14:22

My grandparents were involved in this, being in Germany in the 1930s.

People didn't colloborate with the Nazis only out of fear. Some people deliberately chose to ally themselves with the aggressor, hoping for some personal advancement that might come from sucking up to those who seemed like they were about to seize power. Because there really are some selfish people in this world who will ally with any side if they think they will get some personal advantage out of it.

Southfields · 19/06/2018 14:19

Thanks, OP.

Your final sentences reminded me of the horrible accusations that were made after Millwall cancelled and the meeting was moved to the HOC by the kind intervention of a Tory MP. The organisers - who were taking "any port in a storm" - were accused of "getting into bed with" the far-right" AND were accused of and assumed to, agree with everything that Tory MP had previously said up to that day, on every subject under the sun.

The utter childish ludicrousness of this appals and shocks me: it's like the nursery school playground: "I won't play with you, because you are mates with someone whose brother supports Spurs whilst I support Chelsea."

Norther · 19/06/2018 13:33

SuperLoudPoppingAction

Love it! Thats going on my fridge!

OP posts:
LaSqrrl · 19/06/2018 13:32

No, I actually know, Free. There is no way I would go dark like that. I could not actually live with myself, even if my own survival depended upon it. I would rather kill myself instead. That is my internal compass.

Freespeecher · 19/06/2018 13:29

On the flip side you have the likes of the 'Bitch of Belsen', Irma Grese.

One of Jordan Peterson's themes is that those who were involved in such atrocities were 'normal' people like everyone else, so we have to accept the darkness within ourselves that means that we too are capable of such acts.

Like previous posters I'd like to think I'd have been in the resistance but who really knows?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 19/06/2018 13:19

"Courage is like--it's a habitus, a habit, a virtue:
You get it by courageous acts.
It's like you learn to swim by swimming.

You learn courage by couraging."
Mary Daly

Lessons from history
LaSqrrl · 19/06/2018 13:15

I think if I was going through those times (WWII), I would probably been a part of the resistance in some way. Mainly, it is my style - use the clever, not foolish bravery, and look to the long goal.

Lots of women actually were in the resistance. Perhaps we get all that lifetime training, of appearing compliant and harmless, but really, we hate you, kind of thing.

Whattheactualfuckmate · 19/06/2018 13:13

Spot on

Wanderabout · 19/06/2018 13:09

Great points, thank you

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