World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people

The term used is not gender identity but incongruence. I can see concerns about stigma of mental health are important and has been a major driver for the change. There is so little detail in the definition however, I don't see this as progress for individuals suffering dysphoria.
No one knows the cause of this incongruence and therefore the jury is still out on best treatments.

Wakame - is your definition of "woman" a person who occupies and performs the female role in society?
Because most people I know (and I did a straw poll of random carers on the school run this afternoon) think a woman is someone with a female or xx body. Someone of the sex who can bear children.
If we have different definitions for standard every day words, then communication becomes very hard, and common ground pretty impossible.

deficiency here is not in the science and clinical experience that informs one of the world most important medical guides, but is actually in your knowledge and understanding of a complex medical condition?

There are lots of people who dispute the existence of diagnoses that is based on social constructs rather than physical measures. ADHD and dyslexia are widely disputed across science.

These views are not considered to be bigoted and often cone from ‘science and clinical experience’. There are plenty of scientists and clinicians who disagree with versions of ICD and DSM.

Wakame can I ask you this. Do you genuinely believe that trans people have an opposite sex brain in their body. Genuinely though.

Has it occurred to any of you that the deficiency here is not in the science and clinical experience that informs one of the world most important medical guides, but is actually in your knowledge and understanding of a complex medical condition?

Unlike true believers most Feminists do ask themselves the "is it me or is it them" question on a regular basis.

Wakame

Do you have a gender identity?

Please do not insult our intelligence by substituting a claim of proof for current speculation.

They keep trying to find a way to weed out the AGPs.
If you compare the positions they have published it is obvious they are running as fast as they can just to stay in one place.

but ideologies must adapt to advances in science or you end up sounding like creationists.

Hi Wakame, where can I find the advances in science that explain what gender identity is please.

Perhaps you might watch Sheila Jeffries discussion Wakame. I don't know much about the wider legal historical context?

I have heard of the Yogakarta principles and remember them being discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

I have a very open mind and try to read as much as I can to understand better.

I also (like Jon Ronson) favour humans over ideologies.

The Ted Talk he gave, 'How one tweet can ruin your life' is very interesting and worth watching:

He discusses how SM has been used to ill effect, about the power of mob shaming and how it has created a surveillance society.

THis is a link to the recent 'We need to talk' meeting.

Sheila Jeffries speaks in-depth about the international context and history of legislation and policies about gender identity,

Gender incongruence of childhood is characterized by a marked incongruence between an individual’s experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in pre-pubertal children.

I agree Barracker. It's meaningless waffle without a definition of exactly what they mean by gender.

It can only mean a failure to conform to stereotypes. But exactly why that should be any sort of a problem or disorder is beyond me.

Do they define gender?
Differently from the WHO?
Not at all?

I can't engage without these terms being defined.
You can't be incongruent with a thing if that thing has no meaning to be incongruent with.
You can't conform to a vacuum of meaning.

words, words, words

Put simply, gender non conformity and having a gender identity isn’t/ shouldn’t be considered to be anything other than choice of expression and how one thinks of oneself and wants to express oneself.

Once someone is distressed by their sexed body to the point it impacts on day to day living, this is a condition warranting treatment and attention to help alleviate symptoms so as to lead a fulfilling life.

Sex is immutable and non changeable. Gender identity exists independently of one’s sex, linked to sex and not at all. If this causes distress, seek treatment for the distress. If it doesn’t, good stuff.

In the meantime, provide sex based provision where they are warranted and create some unisex spaces for those who do not want to use the sex based provision!

Poula the most recent ICD says it IS a mental, behavioural or neurodevelopmental disorder.

I think the classification scheme is quite interesting. Putting gender issues and dysphoria under conditions related to sexual health is logical, given that it is secondary and primary sexual characteristics that people are dysphoric about.
Also, the focus on dysphoria, since that is what is potentially treatable, a focus on the medical side, which surely should be to reduce dysphoria, however that is done.

All of which is far different to the line coming from some activists, which is much more the inner belief and soul and you should believe it too pseudo-religious nonsense. This instead focuses very clearly on actual medical issues, not pseudo-religious nonsense. And what can you do to alleviate distress is a slightly different question as to what 'causes' it, although possible treatments will differ depending on how you answer the latter question.

I see it is trying to hold-fast to evidence based medical approach, rather than anything else.

FloralBunting Tue 19-Jun-18 13:37:28

Without wishing to shut anything down, this isn't the trans board, so can I ask what relevance this thread has to the furtherance of the rights of women and girls?

A quick glance shows 17 trans related threads on the front page mostly started by afaik gender critical women. Do you really expect the othering of transgender people and disparaging statements about their identities to go unchallenged?
There are many posts on FWR stating trans is a mental illness and Wakame has posted the most recent ICD, which counters those ideas. Is this not acceptable? Or do you prefer an echo chamber?

Yes yes definitely agree that it’s good that gender non conformity is not labelled as transgenderism.
A bit confused re the insistence that it is a medical condition but definitely not a mental disorder. To me, it must be entirely in the mind. It doesn’t really help anyone to pretend otherwise. I can see that trans people would consider that to be stigmatising, but realistically how else can the condition of gender dysphoria be explained? A body is a body is a body. The only difference between someone who is dysphoric and someone who is not is how they experience and perceive that body.

SomeDyke, yes, agreed on that point, certainly.

I'm just seeing so many OPs of this type, bringing up random links about trans definitions and suchlike, and contributing to the endless trans focus of FWR at the moment.
It's hard not to view it as another version of derailing a particular thread to make it about something else entirely - TRAs making FWR 'all about me', if you like.

PeakPants

OK, I think I see what you're getting at. The trans diagnosis has to be effectively a self diagnosis of feeling that they have the wrong body. Stereotypical actions and behaviours are part of it, but it also requires the person to have a belief that they are in the wrong body.

"so can I ask what relevance this thread has to the furtherance of the rights of women and girls?"
Well, WHO guidelines do seem to indicate that gender non-conforming girls, or girls who like girls, should not be labelled as trans based on that alone (rather than just possibly gender nonconforming girls who might later be lesbians).
And I'd be all for encouraging gender non-conformity in girls, frankly!

I think two things to note. Firstly, always a strong mention of dysphoria (unlike some current activism where dysphoria not required). Plus a strong statement as to what the issue is. Assuming, for example, that kids are trans just because they like the wrong things, dress the wrong way, play the wrong sports, have unusual hobbies, or wear too much make-up, like boys rather than girls (and vice versa), is labelled as wrong here -- despite this is what many parents seem to do (cue all the what blanket they chose when they were a baby etc etc anecdotes).
I think the listing is actually quite good, and a strong focus on dysphoria, and kids giving a clear statement in what the issue is, and the two years thing. A lot more sensible than it could have been, frankly.............