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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people

117 replies

Wakame · 19/06/2018 11:52

The World Health Organisation produces a document called the "International Classification of Diseases" (the "ICD").

Version 11 is out and you'll all be delighted to know that they have moved "gender incongruence" (their term for being trans) out of the section for mental illness and into the section for sexual health.

Here is section HA61 on "Gender incongruence of childhood" for example:

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f344733949

And note the last line:

"Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis."

That's right - gendered behaviour and gender identity are not the same thing.

Same, of course, for HA60 "Gender incongruence of adolescence or adulthood":

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286

OP posts:
PeakPants · 20/06/2018 11:29

"gender identity" is person's innate sense of their own sex. You should know that by now. Not everyone has one of course, or at least, not everyone is aware of it. They are called "agender" and are actually part of the non-binary trans spectrum.

Fine, wakame. Do you think there are any circumstances where a person's innate sense of their own sex is actually of secondary importance to their actual sex? For instance, in sport, where a male with an innate sense of being female is 2 stone heavier with significantly more muscle than his competitors? Or where administering a particular drug would cause health complications in a female body, but not a male one? Could you explain how an innate sense of sex is of any relevance there?

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/06/2018 11:28

"Genetic anomalies? Where? In what gene/s?"Do your research

I’ve done twenty plus years of it. If you make a statement like that the onus is on YOU to provide evidence.

The paper you posted on the other thread has no controls, a tiny sample group and they’ve picked out genes in sex steroid metabolism without stating if the people they arrayed are on hormones.

It’s laughable.

What are these genetic anomalies you mean?

R0wantrees · 20/06/2018 11:27

Ray Blanchard career
(Wikipedia)
"He received his A.B. in psychology from the University of Pennsylvania in 1967 and his Ph.D. from the University of Illinois in 1973. He conducted postdoctoral research at Dalhousie University until 1976, when he accepted a position as a clinical psychologist at the Ontario Correctional Institute in Brampton, Ontario, Canada (a suburb of Toronto). There, Blanchard met Kurt Freund, who became his mentor. Freund was conducting research in chemical castration for sex offenders.[1] In 1980, he joined the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry (now part of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health).[2] In 1995 Blanchard was named Head of Clinical Sexology Services in the Law and Mental Health Programme of the CAMH, where he served until 2010. He is an adjunct Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto.[3] He served on the American Psychiatric Association DSM-IV Subcommittee on Gender Identity Disorders[4] and was named to the DSM-5 committee. According to the Web of Science, Blanchard's scientific articles have been cited more than 1800 times, with an h-index of 27.[5]"

Pratchet · 20/06/2018 11:25

The answer to that is complex and nuanced

That will be a no, then.

Human sex differences are not a simple binary

Human sex is based on reproductive role, which is a binary.

Wakame · 20/06/2018 11:25

"Also defining gender identity would be lovely"

"gender identity" is person's innate sense of their own sex. You should know that by now. Not everyone has one of course, or at least, not everyone is aware of it. They are called "agender" and are actually part of the non-binary trans spectrum.

OP posts:
Wakame · 20/06/2018 11:23

"Ray Blanchard's opinion"

Ah - the scientist who says either your test results support his theory, or you must be lying.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 20/06/2018 11:23

cf
NHS England and NHS Scotland
Analysis of public consultation on proposed service specifications for specialised Gender Identity Services for Adults (published March 2018)
www.engage.england.nhs.uk/survey/gender-identity-services-for-adults/user_uploads/report-independent-analysis-consultation-responses-gender-identity-service-specifications.pdf

Wakame · 20/06/2018 11:21

"Genetic anomalies? Where? In what gene/s?"

Do your research.

OP posts:
Wakame · 20/06/2018 11:20

"I’d just like to say, as an active, working scientist, that this is, in fact, not true"

If only the WHO had asked you instead.

OP posts:
Picassospaintbrush · 20/06/2018 11:13

That tweet was interesting wasn't it R0wantrees?

They are treading a fine line here between wanting it de-listed but needing health classifications to get treatment paid for in the strict US insured health system

Means nothing has changed in reality, absolutely zero.

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/06/2018 11:10

Also defining gender identity would be lovely but let's concentrate on the genetic anomalies

I am all ears.

R0wantrees · 20/06/2018 11:10

Ray Blanchard's opinion

World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people
Bowlofbabelfish · 20/06/2018 11:09

Trans people also have genetic anomalies, but again, although it is fairly clear that they are relevant, it is not yet clear which of those anomalies informs gender identity and in what way.

Genetic anomalies? Where? In what gene/s? Please explain this statement as this, again, is not true

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/06/2018 11:08

Of course, and there always will be, but medical science moves by broad consensus, and that is currently against you.

I’d just like to say, as an active, working scientist, that this is, in fact, not true

Picassospaintbrush · 20/06/2018 11:05

I think the angels dancing on a pin head argument about what trans isn't or is makes no odds to the existence of female humans.

Female humans are not male humans, male humans are not female humans.

S'not complicated.

Wakame · 20/06/2018 10:55

"I thought that scientific progress was forged on challenging convention."

It is sometimes. In this case, by challenging the convention that being trans is a mental illness.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 20/06/2018 10:54

You may be interested in this Wakame

Christime Burns MBE was involved with the 2004 act and so I am sure she is very well informed.

Guardian article on background and work done by 'Press for Change'
(extract)
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press"." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people
Wakame · 20/06/2018 10:53

"There are plenty of scientists and clinicians who disagree with versions of ICD and DSM."

Of course, and there always will be, but medical science moves by broad consensus, and that is currently against you.

OP posts:
Wakame · 20/06/2018 10:52

"Wakame can I ask you this. Do you genuinely believe that trans people have an opposite sex brain in their body. Genuinely though."

The answer to that is complex and nuanced. Human sex differences are not a simple binary. There are statistically significant sex differences in human brains, but there is also a huge overlap and few people have fully masculine or feminine brains.

There are certainly brain anomalies in trans people, and it is reasonable therefore to speculate that gender identity has some relationship to those anomalies, but scientists have yet to work out the exact seat of gender identity, or how the various parts so far identified interact with each other.

Trans people also have genetic anomalies, but again, although it is fairly clear that they are relevant, it is not yet clear which of those anomalies informs gender identity and in what way.

So, to answer your question as best I can - trans people have a gender identity (a person's innate sense of their own sex) which is at odds with the degree of masculinity or femininity of their body, and there are both genetic and neurological markers that bear some connection which is not yet fully understood.

Here are links to 26 peer-reviewed articles on trans brains:

www.cakeworld.info/transsexualism/what-is/brain-similarities

And here is some recent preliminary research on some of the genetic anomalies:

www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/4592/presentation/578abstract

OP posts:
Wakame · 20/06/2018 10:42

"Do you have a gender identity?"

Yes. Do you?

OP posts:
Pratchet · 20/06/2018 01:26

If the NHS actually believes you can have an opposite sex brain in your body I'd like them to put up a neurosurgeon to say it. Bring it on.

Picassospaintbrush · 19/06/2018 23:50

mobile.twitter.com/BlanchardPhD/status/1009202645918199808
Blanchard says:
RE: The proposed placement of gender identity disorders in the ICD-11. In my opinion, this represents an attempt to placate trans activists while maintaining the conditions necessary for third party payment for surgery.

Picassospaintbrush · 19/06/2018 22:56

Or perhaps you are so invested in your political ideology that you are unable to contemplate anything that disproves it.

This is what we are trying to combat, not what we are doing.

Pratchet · 19/06/2018 22:52

Bit much to say no one knows the cause.

Elletorro · 19/06/2018 21:02

I thought that scientific progress was forged on challenging convention.

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