World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people

Report when you can, ignore the rest I guess.

Well said Dresden.

I've posted before that my heart sank when I saw the seaweed one's name appear on FWR and sure enough it's the same load of bs that was sprayed all over the Guardian btl for years.

Utterly pointless to engage imo especially now that MN seems to be going the way of the Guardian with its pro-penis bearers policing policy...how do we kick against the pricks effectively?

I had no idea they were responsible for getting posters banned at the Guardian though...

Well yes, it comes as no great surprise to learn that Wakame has a tenacious focus on their narrow viewpoint all over the internet and will behave in authoritarian ways to ensure their voice drowns out any critique. The ego is trans parent and quite familiar.

Interesting indeed.

That is interesting information. You mean as a contributor or a mod?

Wakame was a constant contributor on trans or gender identity comments who weaponised the reporting system against even mild gender critical commentary. Did W have any formal role, Dresden?

That is interesting information. You mean as a contributor or a mod?

For anyone who doesnt know already Wakame policed the Guardian CIF comments section ( with others) until any and all responders that disagreed with their narrative were perma banned or put into moderationj ( i was in moderation for 18 months folks after commenting there for 12 years)

Wakame's angle is a love letter to 1984 - they insist that science agrees with them because they know that 'science' is the only thing in society that commands respect these days in ideology wars. When there simply isnt the data there.

Obviously its up to everyone else what they do but personally i would always advocate for not giving someone the attention and platform they want when their intentions are nefarious at best.

I definitely identify as ‘don’t know what your on about’.

Flowers, would your description make it something akin to ASD? A non-neurotypicality-type thing?

And would that help to explain the current clusters of ASD/dysphoric teens?

I watched a YouTube video of 4 young male born people describing themselves as ‘trans butches’ last night and I can see why such categorising would be appealing to people who don’t fit in socially yet have a need for structure and rules.

My own non-neurotypical son is the complete opposite - he thinks the whole gender identity thing is an absolute nonsense.

We keep being told it’s a spectrum, maybe that common language is more astute than I realised?

It is irrelevant.

I don’t care whichbof the fifty three billion genders someone thinks they are any more than if they think they have a soul. Label yourself whatever you want. It’s just an opinion. It can’t be seen, measured, looked at, or apparently even defined in logical terms.

What’s important is sex, in certain situations. So we segregate or protect based on sex.

I mean sex as in male female -

it's all about reproduction after all

from an animal perspective

obviously it matters and is real

or, no babies, no human race

The fundamental idea

that sex is irrelevant

is ridiculous

and that's the end of it really

there may be internal gender id
some people may have it more than others
there may be mechanisms at work behind it
i'm open to all this

why does that mean we need to remove / obliterate / ignore the fact of reproductive sex in humans (and mammals?)

Blimey how confusing.

We all appear to be under this umbrella don’t we? If only there were simple and scientifically fact based words for each type..

So what's a gender identity?

I need an explanation that doesn’t use souls, Cartesian duality or a circular argument. What is it?

My theory (based on an admittedly patchy reading of the literature and reading the experiences of transsexuals) is that it is probably due to an innate 'mis-wiring' of the brain in people with gender dysphoria.

I am very far from convinced that everyone who claims to be trans has this condition.

So if most people don't have this feeling it's no surprise that it's a difficult conversation.

Like when spiritual friends talk about "knowing" that there is sometihng "more" - nope no idea what you're on about.

It's an impossible conversation if for a large swathe of society this feeling is not something they know, and they have to take in on trust that others feel it.Which is OK until you get into >> I feel this feeling therefore I am something that physical evidence says I am not and moreover I want XYZ in order to accommodate me... Then we get some issues.

"I thought agender meant you had a gender identity (still waiting for a decent non circular definition of that) butvit wasn’t Male or female?"

No that's bigender / demigender etc
Agender is no internal feeling of gender and according to stonewall (at least when I got a thing at work) was "rare"
Although in practice most people at least on MN and who I've asked IRL seem to be "agender"

I think that agender is probably standard and having any kind of internal gender ID is unusual - they've got it the wrong way round. Has anyone ever checked this in the general population? I've not heard of anything. It's difficult as most people think gender means sex so if you ask what gender they are they just tick their sex.

*"gender identity" is person's innate sense of their own sex. You should know that by now. Not everyone has one of course, or at least, not everyone is aware of it. They are called "agender" and are actually part of the non-binary trans spectrum."

I thought agender meant you had a gender identity (still waiting for a decent non circular definition of that) butvit wasn’t Male or female?

So I’m aware I’m female - I’m pregnant, deffo female. Pretty sure of that. But my sense of it isn’t any kind of innate ‘I iz laydee’ feeling it’s from looking downwards at this sodding great bump I have. I see it, I see and experience my female biology, so I know I’m female.

Awareness of sex isn’t gender identity. It’s having senses that tell you you’re female of Male. It’s not an innate sense, it’s observable reality. So no, I don’t think awareness of the sexed body is what’s meant by gender identity AT ALL.

Because some people can look at their sexed body and still ‘feel’ like that observable reality doesn’t match their internal whatever it is. So it can’t be physical awareness of the body. Or no one would have the mysterious gender identity that didn’t match their sexed body

So *what's a gender identity?’

I need an explanation that doesn’t use souls, Cartesian duality or a circular argument. What is it?

This isn’t really about whether or how people should be segregated though, it’s about standards and pathways of care etc?

I am totally baffled by the idea that any divisions should be made based on how people report that they feel.

(And with most people ending up in a separate room with "dont' know what you're on about" posted on the door).

How would that work in sports?

One race for those who feel female
One race for those who feel male
One race for everyone else

Penis-people win all three hurrah for diversity and progress.

Agree with PP that says all this internal gender stuff is interesting but beside the point

What you have in your head has no relevance at all when divisions are made between groups based on their bodies - their sex.

""Also defining gender identity would be lovely"

"gender identity" is person's innate sense of their own sex. You should know that by now. Not everyone has one of course, or at least, not everyone is aware of it. They are called "agender" and are actually part of the non-binary trans spectrum."

So most gender critical feminists / and women are trans then? So why aren't our voices and opinions lifted up by our fellow trans people?

I know the answer to that - it's the same reason trans women who are GC are called "truscum" etc.

OR what actually happens when women report this, that they do not have this feeling, is they are told that they are so at home in their sexed bodies and the sexed brains that they don't even notice it. Which is:
a. Extremely offensive given the massive rates of dysphoria and distress around being female in a sexist society. "Comfortable" is something many women only hit when they are much older, and lots never do
b. Assumes that women don't know their own minds which is super-progressive (although maybe our "feminine" brains just can't handle the concept. Deep / abstract thinking is beyond us)

"gender identity" is person's innate sense of their own sex.

This is always the crux of the difference between the trans idea what it means and the feminist idea of what it means.

The feminist idea says it's impossible to feel like a woman unless you are one. Because stereotypical behaviour does not determine sex.

So @Wakame can you describe what a man feels when he has the innate gender identity of a woman?

I'm obviously a bit thick because I don't understand what's so worrying. It also says: "Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis." And in the adolescent and adult section (immediately prior to that line): "The diagnosis cannot be assigned prior the onset of puberty."

"fully masculine or feminine brains"

????

The statement that brains are "masculine" or "feminine" is grotesque to post on a feminism board. I mean, seriously.

Loads of poeple think women are fucking stupid / subhuman / incapable of rational thought so ra ra ra to the trans crew for pushing the idea of innate differences in how men and women think, right to the fore again.

I think it means it can be an illness if you feel shit about it, but not if you don’t? Which sounds about right.

Started reading and skipped to the end to post

"Actually, had a look at ICD 11; ‘gender incongruence’ is still listed under “mental, behavioural and neurodevelopmental disorders”"

then

"Gender incongruence of childhood is characterized by a marked incongruence between an individual’s experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in pre-pubertal children"

EXPRESSED gender we all know what that means - adhering to the prevalent norms in society for a child of that sex aka gender role aka stereotype.

So these statements to me are bizarre and worrying.